Third Temple Scam in modern Jerusalem?

[mkgal1]

A vision - is a visualization. Daniel was not given visualization in Daniel 9.

Take a look at the interpretations of Daniel 9:23.....and at the meaning of the original Hebrew word used:


Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of your petitions, an answer went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly precious. So consider the message and understand the vision:

 

[Douggg]

It certainly has changed. We were discussing whether Daniel 9:23 refers to Daniel 9:24-27. You were shown that it does.

Specifically understanding of the vision in Daniel 9:23 that Gabriel was referring to.

Here, I will paraphrase it for you. Daniel was praying about the 70 years about to be up. He was praying, no vision involved.

Then suddenly Gabriel shows up to inform him when that the matter of the return of the Jews would take place and the rebuilding of Jerusalem. And furthermore to help Daniel understand the vision he had before about the transgression of desolation by the little horn for the time of the end would take place - when - in the big picture.

Which the big picture included the messiah coming and being cutoff after 483 years. And that there was a prince who was coming to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.

And in the middle of it stop the daily sacrifice - just as the little horn person was to do in Daniel 8.

The prince who shall come is the little horn person.

 

[Douggg]

Take a look at the interpretations of Daniel 9:23.....and at the meaning of the original Hebrew word used:

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of your petitions, an answer went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly precious. So consider the message and understand the vision:

I recently had this same discussion with a Jew who has a Phd, and is an expert in Hebrew over at the messiah truth site. He conceded my point that Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 9.

I paraphrased what took place in Daniel 9 to jgr in my previous post #302.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of your petitions, an answer went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly precious. So consider the message [about the 70 years by Jeremiah] and understand the vision [that you had of the little horn, and the transgression of desolation, the last time we interfaced]:

 

[jgr]

Specifically understanding of the vision in Daniel 9:23 that Gabriel was referring to.

Here, I will paraphrase it for you. Daniel was praying about the 70 years about to be up. He was praying, no vision involved.

Then suddenly Gabriel shows up to inform him when that the matter of the return of the Jews would take place and the rebuilding of Jerusalem. And furthermore to help Daniel understand the vision he had before about the transgression of desolation by the little horn for the time of the end would take place - when - in the big picture.

Which the big picture included the messiah coming and being cutoff after 483 years. And that there was a prince who was coming to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.

And in the middle of it stop the daily sacrifice - just as the little horn person was to do in Daniel 8.

The prince who shall come is the little horn person.

There's nothing preventing you from claiming to be the sole source of truth in this matter in the entire history of the Church.

Don't be surprised when you can't persuade anyone to believe you.

 

[jgr]

I recently had this same discussion with a Jew who has a Phd, and is an expert in Hebrew over at the messiah truth site. He conceded my point that Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 9.

Was he a Christian?

If not, why would you seek truth from a Christ-rejecter?

If he was, did you tell him that no one else in the entire history of the true Church shared your opinion?

 

[Douggg]

Was he a Christian?

If not, why would you seek truth from a Christ-rejecter?

If he was, did you tell him that no one else in the entire history of the true Church shared your opinion?

Just the opposite, the person is a countermissionary Jew who does not believe that Jesus is the messiah, and says that Christian missionaries are destroying Jewish souls by converting Jews to Christianity.

I never said I was seeking the truth about Daniel 9 from him.

 

[Douggg]

There's nothing preventing you from claiming to be the sole source of truth in this matter in the entire history of the Church.

Don't be surprised when you can't persuade anyone to believe you.

I would suggest taking a lesson from Joshua 1:8 and meditate on God's word day and night.

 

[mkgal1]

I recently had this same discussion with a Jew who has a Phd, and is an expert in Hebrew over at the messiah truth site. He conceded my point that Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 9.

I paraphrased what took place in Daniel 9 to jgr in my previous post #302.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of your petitions, an answer went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly precious. So consider the message [about the 70 years by Jeremiah] and understand the vision [that you had of the little horn, and the transgression of desolation, the last time we interfaced]:

If it meant that - those words you added would've been there in the text......but they aren't.

"Understand the message and the vision" with a colon followed by v. 24-27 means the message & the vision are what's being explained in v. 24-27. One doesn't use a colon to relate to something written in a previous chapter.

"The Colon : The Colon and the Semicolon" The Colon : The Colon and the Semicolon

 

[Douggg]

"Understand the message and the vision" with a colon followed by v. 24-27 means the message & the vision are what's being explained in v. 24-27. One doesn't use a colon to relate to something written in a previous chapter.

The vision is something Daniel already had experienced previously.

A colon doesn't relate to something that has already happened? Yes, it can.

for example: The first three kings of united Israel we read about in the bible are: (colon)
Saul, David, Solomon.

A colon is often used before a list of things.

Here is the list in v24. each item separated by a comma.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and the upon thy holy city,

to finish the transgression, (my comment - which is the transgression of desolation that Daniel saw previously)

and to make an end of sins,

and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and to seal up the vision and prophecy, (my comment, complete fulfillment of the vision that Daniel previously had in Daniel 8 regarding the little horn person. The prophecy is what Gabriel said in v25-27. Ending with Jesus's return.)

and to anoint the most Holy.

___________________________________________________________

Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 9. The vision referred to is the one Daniel had in Daniel 8 - "the transgression" by the little horn person.

 

[iamlamad]

The vision is something Daniel already had experienced previously.

A colon doesn't relate to something that has already happened? Yes, it can.

for example: The first three kings of united Israel we read about in the bible are: (colon)
Saul, David, Solomon.

A colon is often used before a list of things.

Here is the list in v24. each item separated by a comma.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and the upon thy holy city,

to finish the transgression, (my comment - which is the transgression of desolation that Daniel saw previously)

and to make an end of sins,

and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and to seal up the vision and prophecy, (my comment, complete fulfillment of the vision that Daniel previously had in Daniel 8 regarding the little horn person. The prophecy is what Gabriel said in v25-27. Ending with Jesus's return.)

and to anoint the most Holy.

___________________________________________________________

Daniel did not have a vision in Daniel 9. The vision referred to is the one Daniel had in Daniel 8 - "the transgression" by the little horn person.

Bubble burst: Daniel did not use colons. Nor Semi-colons.

 

[mkgal1]

A colon doesn't relate to something that has already happened? Yes, it can.

for example: The first three kings of united Israel we read about in the bible are: (colon)
Saul, David, Solomon.

My point is, a reader relates what comes immediately after the colon with the phrase written before (not paragraphs before). IOW.(using your example)......Saul, David, and Solomon are "the first 3 kings of united Israel." Likewise....Daniel 9:24-27 is the explanation of the message and vision mentioned in Daniel 9:23.

Daniel 9:23
At the beginning of your petitions, an answer went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly precious. So consider the message and understand the vision:

V. 24-27 - go on to describe the 70 weeks.
​

This kind of discussion always seem to occur when eschatology is being presented by a futurist. It is an upside-down world with a completely different set of rules and beliefs.

 

[mkgal1]

A colon doesn't relate to something that has already happened? Yes, it can.

That's not what I wrote.

One doesn't use a colon to relate to something written in a previous chapter.

 

[nolidad]

That isn't referring to Jesus sinning. It's referring to what Jesus said here (the transgressions reaching full measure and thus demanding judgment):

Matthew 23:29-36
29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation​

Wrong!

Of 33 translations I have only one has the word sin in it and it is in the plural form.

Teh transgression is singular in Daniel 9!

I have 3 greek interlinears and not one of them mentions any one of the six greek words for sin in MAtt. 23:32.

So the evidence says this is not what God Inspired in Daniel 9. But nice try!

 

[nolidad]

The vision of the transgression of desolation is time of the end. Gabriel did not say the same for the parts of the ram, he goat, four break up kingdoms.

Why do you selectively read the Word of God??

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?



22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.


YOu are wrong biblically,
you are wrong grammatically
You are wrong contextually.

There is nothing other than you rown imagination that exists that says verse 13 is 2500 years separated from verses 10-12

I asked you to defend this conjecture of yours biblically and grammatically. this is the last time I ask.

 

[Douggg]

YOu are wrong biblically,
you are wrong grammatically
You are wrong contextually.

There is nothing other than you rown imagination that exists that says verse 13 is 2500 years separated from verses 10-12

I asked you to defend this conjecture of yours biblically and grammatically. this is the last time I ask

Antiochus was not time of the end.

TIME OF THE END IN THE BIBLE

 

[nolidad]

That's not my "rreckoining".

Jesus was crucified in 30 AD (but didn't die - that's part of the plot of the story).

"To seal vision and prophet" is to authenticate what's written (like a king's seal of authenticity). Jesus authenticated even what was written after His ascension (even though there are those that deny His fulfillment of Scripture).

Sorry mkgal1 but the word "seal" used in Daniel is not to authenticate it but to shut it up!

Well according to your reckonings Jesus was cut off in 27 AD for that is after the 69 weeks!

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

Please don't try to say it means 69 1/2 weeks. That is linguistic dishonesty.
That would be the same as saying when Jesus said He would rise after the third day- it was on the 5 1/2 day!

While technically corrrect- it is a dishonest use of license in light of teh specificity of the language within the passage.

Still waiting for your proof Jesus ended THE one transgression.
Still waiting to see how he shut up prophecy.

Also Jesus established the means of everlasting righteousness and brought it in by His death and
Resurrections but everlasting righteousness has not been brought on Jerusalem and the Jew , yet! Remember this vision is for Daniels people and the Holy City!

 

[mkgal1]

Sorry mkgal1 but the word "seal" used in Daniel is not to authenticate it but to shut it up!

For Daniel 9:24:

Brown-Driver-Briggs
seal, affix one's seal, in attestation; seal with king's seal (בְּחֹתָמוֺ) putting his seal upon (בְּ) discipline, i.e. ratifying it

"Strong's Hebrew: 2856. חָתַם (chatham) -- to seal, affix a seal" Strong's Hebrew: 2856. חָתַם (chatham) -- to seal, affix a seal, seal up

For Daniel 12:4 (a different original word was used)

"Daniel 12:4 Lexicon: "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."" Daniel 12:4 Lexicon: "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

satham: to stop up, shut up, keep close
Original Word: סָתַם​

 

[nolidad]

The covenant that had been foretold by the prophets. The covenant that had Jesus as the mediator/High Priest/King - Messiah.....descendant of David in the order of Melchizedek.....the Seed of Abraham.....the faithful Israelite that kept the Law and inherited the blessings.

So now show that Jesus entered into a 7 year covenant with Israel in 27 AD. Show that covenant! And how in the midst of teh covenant Jesus ended sacrifices- once again not the effectiveness of sacrifices for that is not what is written. But that He ended the sacrifices and caused desolations to increase because of the overspreading of abominations.

Specify this covenant as you are implying it is well known.

 

[nolidad]

Antiochus was not time of the end.

TIME OF THE END IN THE BIBLE

No but He was at teh time of the end of their (the four generals ) kingdoms as is written in Gods Word and not douggs re-interpretation!

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

[mkgal1]

So now show that Jesus entered into a 7 year covenant with Israel in 27 AD

I'm not asserting that Jesus "entered into a 7 year covenant with Israel ".....so why would I attempt to show that?