want to talk about OSAS?

[St_Worm2]

Do you believe that free will now, and even in heaven, or maybe specially in heaven, can be independent of God?

Hello brother, I believe that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, so my will is free within that parameter. His ordaining of all things means (in a somewhat crass sense) that He either causes or allows whatever happens in this world, and in the case of our free will specifically, He may allow us to or forbid us from making a particular choice.

Considering how many times human beings sin everyday, He at least seems to give our free will choices a lot of leeway.

BTW, I believe free will is best defined like this, as the ability to choose what we desire the most at a given moment in time. IOW, if we are able to choose what we want the most, then our will is free.

As for Heaven and/or our future life w/Him on the New Earth, I believe that we will be changed at that point so that we will be like Him .. in the sense that we will no longer have any desire to sin. So our wills will always be free, and we will never choose to sin again, because we will never have the desire to sin

God bless you!

--David

 

[PaulCyp1]

Actually, OSAS is true, but it doesn't happen while we are alive on Earth. That unbiblical idea was dreamed up by Protestants within the past couple of hundred years. No Christian on Earth ever heard of such a thing before then. No-one is saved until they are safely in Heaven, and one that occurs, it is indeed forever. But as long as we are alive on Earth, we are free to accept God or reject Him at any time in our life. Some never find God until their final years, accept Him, and are saved. Others find Him while they are young, are faithful to Him for many years, and then fall away and turn their backs on Him, and their fellow Protestants say "I guess he was never really saved". Right! And neither is anyone else until they enter Heaven.

 

[returntosender]

I can't make it any harder by asking what kind of salvation is it. It is the salvation that we all believe in over time. Only one meaning, not to bring in other possibilities of what it might be. Why do that? I was born again and now my salvation is forever that kind of salvation. If you believe that God knows who will forsake him so they are left out of the count of those that will go to heaven then those people will never ever lose it because they are destined by God in his knowledge of their acceptance to be with him. Those that God knows will reject him aren't even in the count of OSAS because you first have to believe and they don't.
Just throwing that in to confuse the issue. I also don't believe we can ever ever leave Jesus out of the word salvation keeping in mind we are talking about the real true salvation and no imitation that people are throwing in there.Don't muddy the waters debating which salvation are they talking about. There is only one.
I think we can rest in the surety that we are saved because if we can't believe in the promises of Jesus who can we trust, no one. He would never take away what is promised by him. The thought that it was ever temporary is impossible. That he would have to be in and out of us as we gain and lose salvation. Sure you say but what if we stop believing? Well then since God knows the unbelievers they would never be in that position. The question of osas for them is moot.

 

[zoidar]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

Colossians 1:20-23
"And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach⁠— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."

I don't believe in OSAS. It's not that I think it's like going back and forward, being saved not being saved, but there may be a time when someone will be cut off the olive tree (Romans 11). If that happens only God knows if that person will be grafted in again.

There is also blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which I believe is done by someone knowing Christ (a saved believer), or else it wouldn't be like crucifying Christ anew (Hebrews 6).

Edit: An important thing in this is that Christ is gentle to forgive anyone who wants to come back.

 

[Albion]

However, if a person falls away, the explanation could be that he wasn't saved in the first place.

And if a person falls away and later comes back to the faith, he could have been 'always saved;' it wouldn't matter that he fell away during part of his life if he wound up right with God at death.

There's nothing convoluted or impossible about Eternal Security, and this doesn't depend on us being either free-willers or predestinarians!

 

[returntosender]

I can't make it any harder by asking what kind of salvation is it. It is the salvation that we all believe in over time. Only one meaning, not to bring in other possibilities of what it might be. Why do that? I was born again and now my salvation is forever that kind of salvation. If you believe that God knows who will forsake him so they are left out of the count of those that will go to heaven then those people will never ever lose it because they are destined by God in his knowledge of their acceptance to be with him. Those that God knows will reject him aren't even in the count of OSAS because you first have to believe and they don't.
Just throwing that in to confuse the issue. I also don't believe we can ever ever leave Jesus out of the word salvation keeping in mind we are talking about the real true salvation and no imitation that people are throwing in there.Don't muddy the waters debating which salvation are they talking about. There is only one.
I think we can rest in the surety that we are saved because if we can't believe in the promises of Jesus who can we trust, no one. He would never take away what is promised by him. The thought that it was ever temporary is impossible. That he would have to be in and out of us as we gain and lose salvation. Sure you say but what if we stop believing? Well then since God knows the unbelievers they would never be in that position. The question of osas for them is moot.

If Jesus died for our sins all of our sins then we are forgiven forever of our sins so we are saved forever.
I am rambling waiting for you to jump in and let me know if this is nonsensical.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hello brother, I believe that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, so my will is free within that parameter. His ordaining of all things means (in a somewhat crass sense) that He either causes or allows whatever happens in this world, and in the case of our free will specifically, He may allow us to or forbid us from making a particular choice.

Considering how many times human beings sin everyday, He at least seems to give our free will choices a lot of leeway.

BTW, I believe free will is best defined like this, as the ability to choose what we desire the most at a given moment in time. IOW, if we are able to choose what we want the most, then our will is free.

As for Heaven and/or our future life w/Him on the New Earth, I believe that we will be changed at that point so that we will be like Him .. in the sense that we will no longer have any desire to sin. So our wills will always be free, and we will never choose to sin again, because we will never have the desire to sin

God bless you!

--David

So you are saying that "ordains all things whatsoever comes to pass" doesn't include the details? Because, after all, our "free will" choices are ordained, too, no?

Yes, you do choose what you want the most, always, at that instant of choice, (which makes the integrity of your choice questionable).

 

[zoidar]

If Jesus died for our sins all of our sins then we are forgiven forever of our sins so we are saved forever.
I am rambling waiting for you to jump in and let me know if this is nonsensical.

I think this is true, but we are saved by being united with the death and resurrection of Christ through the Holy Spirit living in us. If we no longer have the Holy Spirit the union is broken, even Jesus died for us.

 

[Guojing]

However, if a person falls away, the explanation could be that he wasn't saved in the first place.

And if a person falls away and later comes back to the faith, he could have been 'always saved;' it wouldn't matter that he fell away during part of his life if he wound up right with God at death.

There's nothing convoluted or impossible about Eternal Security, and this doesn't depend on us being either free-willers or predestinarians!

This will make the entire argument a circular one, aka

If you are truly saved, you cannot fall away (OSAS)
If he falls away, then he was not truly saved in the first place.

 

[St_Worm2]

So you are saying that "ordains all things whatsoever comes to pass" doesn't include the details? Because, after all, our "free will" choices are ordained, too, no?

Hello again Mark, ~nothing~ happens apart from the purview of the Lord's foreordination. For me, His ordination involves 1. ~causing~ something to happen or 2. ~allowing~ something to happen. Perhaps you understand/define God's ordination of all things in a different way than that?

...you do choose what you want the most, always, at that instant of choice, (which makes the integrity of your choice questionable).

Well, we always choose that which we desire most whenever we are free to do so. However, if the influence of a 3rd party has the power to overwhelm our free will, and it, they or He chooses to do so, then we would not be able to choose what we want the most, and our will would no longer be considered free (as long as the will of another is overwhelming our ability to choose what we desire most).

Finally, what is it about making a free will choice that causes you to question the integrity of that choice?

Thanks!

--David

 

[RickReads]

If Jesus died for our sins all of our sins then we are forgiven forever of our sins so we are saved forever.
I am rambling waiting for you to jump in and let me know if this is nonsensical.

It doesn`t address the "sin unto death" 1 John 5. That`s your OSAS Achilles heel.

 

[SANTOSO]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

I don’t know why you can’t see the love that the Lord Jesus Christ have poured on the cross. I don’t know how you consider being saved is meaningless. I don’t know why you are so far from the truth of His love. For you speak what you don’t understand ; you are grieving the Lord.

Let me hear what God the LORD will speak, for he will speak peace to his people, to his saints; but let them not turn back to folly. -Psalms 85:8
Surely his salvation is near to those who fear him, that glory may dwell in our land. -Psalms 85:9

 

[Anthony2019]

The Bible describes salvation in three tenses, past, present and future. We have been saved (2 Timothy 1:9), we are being saved (1 Corinthians 1:18) and we have the hope that we will be saved (Romans 5:9-10).
Whether or not we are finally make it to heaven depends on whether, when our earthly lives are complete, the state of our soul is in friendship or in enmity with God.
Jesus said: "You are my friends if you do what I command you" (John 15:14). "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself" (Matthew 22:37-39). If we are really fulfilling the Royal Law in scripture then we are doing well (James 2:8).

 

[returntosender]

I don’t know why you can’t see the love that the Lord Jesus Christ have poured on the cross. I don’t know how you consider being saved is meaningless. I don’t know why you are so far from the truth of His love. For you speak what you don’t understand ; you are grieving the Lord.

Let me hear what God the LORD will speak, for he will speak peace to his people, to his saints; but let them not turn back to folly. -Psalms 85:8
Surely his salvation is near to those who fear him, that glory may dwell in our land. -Psalms 85:9

I don't know what you are saying here but Osas does not negate the love of the Lord.
It seems from your post that you are far from the meaning of the posts here or I have missed your meaning.
God bless.

 

[returntosender]

Right! But Hebrews 6:4-6 , usually quoted by non-OSAS believers, makes it clear that's impossible -

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."



If it doesn't stick around, it was never eternal. If it becomes eternal at some future point, then you can't know now whether you have eternal life, but 1 John 5:10-13 says you can know now -

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"

Your post an excellent one, supports osas

 

[returntosender]

From that earlier thread: Calvinism teaches that God chooses and irrevocably saves the Elect only. OSAS is only a quick handle on the concept, and I note, is not even a particularly Calvinistic notion --the confidence in the promises of God to complete what he has begun in us is a welcome doctrine to both Calvinists and Arminian-leaning synergists alike.

I don't equate osas to any particular doctrine. Any Christian religion can incorporate osas, right? in my mind anyway. I didn't know why it was brought up in the Calvinist thread.

 

[returntosender]

Right! But Hebrews 6:4-6 , usually quoted by non-OSAS believers, makes it clear that's impossible -

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."



If it doesn't stick around, it was never eternal. If it becomes eternal at some future point, then you can't know now whether you have eternal life, but 1 John 5:10-13 says you can know now -

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"

Its impossible to fall away if you are preordained by God, therefore OSAS is not in question. Its an absolute.

 

[returntosender]

I believe apostasy is possible but I believe God does keep His children and preserves them unless they go apostate

If they are preordained by God, they can't go apostate. Correct. That's how they were preordained, God saw that they would follow him....He doesn't make mistakes.

 

[returntosender]

Interesting poll. I wonder what it would look like if we looked at it historically around the world. My impression is that OSAS (as opposed to perseverance of the saints generally) is a pretty modern view, limited to say the last 50 years, within the US for the most part. Kind of like the "Left Behind" Rapture type of theology.

I could be wrong on that though.

OSAS--Once saved always saved. simply an acronym---the words speak for themselves. the words have no doubt been around since forever but were reduced to an acronym.

 

[returntosender]

It doesn`t address the "sin unto death" 1 John 5. That`s your OSAS Achilles heel.

We are sinners unto death, none of us will ever be Jesus, sinless, but our sins are forgiven forever by the blood of Jesus.