Do Christians actually believe in God?

[Amittai]

That's certainly impressive. But strange things do happen to the human body. I'm not sure if it clears the bar for "miracle" 1 and if you would accept it as proof if you heard it from a believe in another god.

1 there is no definite division between miracle and non-miracle.

 

[Amittai]

why do Christians only ever pray for things that might happen anyway? It seems like every time a miracle is reported, there is another possible explanation than "God did it." After all, lost things do get found every day, people and animals do sometimes recover from medical conditions on their own.

Some people have been known to pray for extra unlikely things and those things didn't happen, hence relative miracles almost always indeed tend to be simply less usual.

 

[Amittai]

... I have seen enough and heard enough to be quite confident that God does not exist, and that anyone who thinks He does is mistaken.
But I am seeking the truth. If God actually exists, I want to know.
I just thought I should make that distinction.

But what proof would convince me? Well, how about this? It seems a fairly reasonable list of things to expect, if the Christian religion is true and the Christian God is real.

You don't need to believe and you need to assert with people that they have got to back off if they want to assert that you do.
A couple of minor points: it may not be of concern whether anyone (other than those I've just described) are mistaken; and if a faith were relatively worthwhile it would be par for the course in terms of human life and culture that some people would subvert and debase it for others.
I am baffled by lots of the responses that assume that christianity and the experience and appraisal of it are uniform, because that is not so.
So many things in life are relative, really. Don't let people stop you looking after yourself.

 

[Amittai]

Christians believe that they live in a universe in which God exists. But the thing is, they don't act like that. And I kind of wonder why. They do pray to God, yes. And they do talk to God, on occasion, so they say ...

Also, they believe others are going to hell. Except...do they? Do they seriously, actually believe this? If so, they are acting in a very strange way. They don't seem to care in the slightest. We live in a world, according to Christians, where some people (a few) will soon depart to a place of unimaginable bliss, and others to a place of appalling horror...and Christians don't seem to care, or to do anything about it. They just carry on with their lives.

Maybe it's because the Christian God doesn't exist .... And perhaps they've also learned not to think too hard about this, or have learned to come up with rationalisations for it.

This is a very interesting set of questions. Most christians were taught to stunt everybody's gifts therefore any (more) real god they might have wanted to believe in got switched for the hard taskmaster, made "palatable" by patronising behaviours. This has especially got worse since the media got hijacked by promulgators of Manifest Destiny.

 

[Amittai]

... Atheists don't see because their eyes are closed, because they have made up their mind in advance.

As you have misunderstood the context, I see this answer as inept.

 

[Amittai]

Amittai said: ↑
By and large I see sheepishness because pushy types have hijacked media to guilt trip believers and non-believers alike. Therefore believers and non-believers alike have got to short circuit the guilt tripping system and stop accepting any finger pointing. (A weaker part of your point is the statistical part, although numbers will certainly have a relative meaning.)​

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Most christians who thought they had a idea of what they were going to believe in were tricked into substituting something different by powerful leaders using media (televangelists and designer outlet churches, further copied by others). This is why you are right that, for many christians of good will but not sharp minds, belief has an element of the ungenuine about it, however subconscious.

On the statistical side I would merely say that this may or may not be markedly so. Given that christians have been mistaught to get the purpose of belief wrong, they are wrong to stress "miracles". The purpose of belief was to develop in gifts and the reason outsiders mostly don't join churches is they know they probably aren't going to get looked after. This is why I find much attempts at "evangelising" or "apologetics" are jumping the gun. I've also seen real evangelising that wasn't accepted, and new believers not accepted, by the church they were taken to.

 

[Arc F1]

I'm not seeking God. After many years, I have seen enough and heard enough to be quite confident that God does not exist, and that anyone who thinks He does is mistaken.
But I am seeking the truth. If God actually exists, I want to know.
I just thought I should make that distinction.

But what proof would convince me? Well, how about this? It seems a fairly reasonable list of things to expect, if the Christian religion is true and the Christian God is real.

That sure is a tall order. You were born a couple thousand years to late. Of course even then when people had proof they still didn't believe. If that list is what you need I'd say you've already made up your mind.

Look brother you know as well as I do nobody on this board is likely to perform any miracles to convince you. None of us have the faith required to do that. If we can't help you try looking within yourself. This is your journey and your path in life. We each have the freedom to do what we want. Maybe I'm just different but I've never sought out others to confirm my beliefs. I arrived at this point on my own. You seem like a good person and I hope you find the peace and balance you're seeking.

 

[Arc F1]

Thank you. Honestly, I try to be more civil than friendly, because it's been my experience that people do not feel friendly when they are told that their most cherished beliefs are mistaken.

Tell me, if you had severe toothache, would you pray to God to take it away, heal you and make you feel better? If a friend had cancer, would you pray to God to heal them? If you lost a vitally important document, would you pray to God to help you find it?

On that last part about the toothache, I believe that's our punishment. There is nothing worse than having a toothache and it always happens on a Friday so that you have to wait. Lol

 

[Arc F1]

Thank you. I see your point. But is it a believable one?
Take a look at the Prayer Forum.
Prayer Wall
Do these Christians look like they are holding back? Read the prayers and you will see them speaking earnestly and with sincere feeling. They are asking God for help, often with great and terrible issues. What you are positing is some kind of conspiracy, in which Christians agree to pray two types of prayers, the trivial ones for public view, and the sincere or serious ones for privacy. Now while it is quite believable that humans, on average, do tend to pray in different ways when in public and when they're alone, it is not believable that there is a bright line dividing them.
So again, I have to ask: for the Christians who believe that God does answer their prayers when they ask Him for things, why do they only ever ask Him for things that might happen anyway?

I only ask what I can do for him. I can't remember ever asking anything for myself other than guidance. Free will has to run its course. If God was to interfere it wouldn't be our path. After Jesus reset everything we've been on our own. We live, we die and we make mistakes. I see this life as nothing more than a test. If you want the best servants you take those that give willingly not those that are forced. I am willing to use my time on this earth doing everything I can to help others. I ask nothing in return. If I am worthy and get rewarded that's great, if not I still wouldn't change a thing. My goals seem to line up with the teachings of Christ and always have even before I knew him.

 

[Tone]

Do you concede the point that the Founding Fathers made the deliberate decision that Christianity should play absolutely no part in the US constitution? Using the word "absolute" in the everyday English sense, rather than the precisely mathematical sense, of course!

If I were to concede this point...what was your point?

My point is that anybody may say anything absolutely, like "I believe in God." and, yet, we may find something about them that makes us ask, "Does this person actually believe in God?".

Yet, as you are attempting to show (with the founding fathers), one may make a "deliberate decision" that x should play absolutely no part in y. My point was that there are things about the F.F. that would make me question your certainty (and their alleged certainty).

We won't get into the relationship between x and y here though...

 

[Tone]

These verses seem pretty clear as to their meaning, so either no one was praying, or if they were, then what the bible says is just not true.
Of course, a possible Christian take on these verses is, "Oh, I know that's what it says, but that is not what it means."

Well, there is such a thing in literature as context.

Also, you will find that there are conditions to these things, like "abide in me", "do not doubt", "ask according to My will", etc...

1 John 5:14

 

[Tone]

None of us have the faith required to do that

This is a valid point.

The Bible does speak about a growing faith.

So, what you see here on the CF prayer wall, may not be impressive to you (@InterestedAtheist ), because your eyes may crave the astounding.

I mean, to me, it is more astounding that one who was really hurt by another (even extremely victimized) would pray for the offender's salvation.

But, I understand that we are more apt to find outer miracles more entertaining than the inner miracles.

The outer (visible eye candy) miracles were often given as a sign to the dull hearted, of the inner miracles.


Matthew 9:5-7
"Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home." Then the man got up and went home."

 

[InterestedAtheist]

1 there is no definite division between miracle and non-miracle.

Can we agree that a miracle is an act of God? Sure, some purported miracles could have happened in other ways, by luck or coincidence, and they could be harder to determine whether they were truly miraculous or not. But in principle at least, something is either a miracle or it isn't. Even if you have difficulty determining which it is, and may even never be able to do so, in principle it either is or it isn't.

Some people have been known to pray for extra unlikely things and those things didn't happen, hence relative miracles almost always indeed tend to be simply less usual.

I'm not sure if I understood that. Are you saying that some people have tried praying for more miraculous things and they didn't happen, so now they don't?

You don't need to believe and you need to assert with people that they have got to back off if they want to assert that you do.
A couple of minor points: it may not be of concern whether anyone (other than those I've just described) are mistaken; and if a faith were relatively worthwhile it would be par for the course in terms of human life and culture that some people would subvert and debase it for others.
I am baffled by lots of the responses that assume that christianity and the experience and appraisal of it are uniform, because that is not so.
So many things in life are relative, really. Don't let people stop you looking after yourself.

I'm sorry. That sounded very interesting, but I didn't really understand what you meant. Could you clarify?

This is a very interesting set of questions. Most christians were taught to stunt everybody's gifts therefore any (more) real god they might have wanted to believe in got switched for the hard taskmaster, made "palatable" by patronising behaviours. This has especially got worse since the media got hijacked by promulgators of Manifest Destiny.

Again, interesting, butnot sure what you mean.

Most christians who thought they had a idea of what they were going to believe in were tricked into substituting something different by powerful leaders using media (televangelists and designer outlet churches, further copied by others). This is why you are right that, for many christians of good will but not sharp minds, belief has an element of the ungenuine about it, however subconscious.

On the statistical side I would merely say that this may or may not be markedly so. Given that christians have been mistaught to get the purpose of belief wrong, they are wrong to stress "miracles". The purpose of belief was to develop in gifts and the reason outsiders mostly don't join churches is they know they probably aren't going to get looked after. This is why I find much attempts at "evangelising" or "apologetics" are jumping the gun. I've also seen real evangelising that wasn't accepted, and new believers not accepted, by the church they were taken to.

Again, would you mind restating? I'm not sure how to respond.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That sure is a tall order. You were born a couple thousand years to late.

It's in interesting list, isn't it? But it's a perfectly honest one, and represents my ideas quite well. I hope you don't think I'm acting in bad faith. These are the things that would make me believe in Christianity. What else could I possibly ask for? From talking to Christians, it seems the answer is either a personal encounter with Christ (which seems perfectly reasonable, and is, if you look, on the list).

Of course even then when people had proof they still didn't believe. If that list is what you need I'd say you've already made up your mind.

Well, yes and no. And that's a good answer. Yes, I have made up my mind, in that years of experience and observation have convinced me that there is no God and anyone who thinks there is is mistaken.
But at the same time no, because I am completely open to God's existence, if it could be proved. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Christians can't provide it. But it should bother them that they can't, because if God is real, they should be able to prove it.

Look brother you know as well as I do nobody on this board is likely to perform any miracles to convince you.

I certainly do. The question is, why not? I've had answers on this very thread by Christians who say that they are happy to talk to God and ask Him for things, and that they regularly receive responses from Him - including miracles.

I've never sought out others to confirm my beliefs. I arrived at this point on my own. You seem like a good person and I hope you find the peace and balance you're seeking.

Thank you. You seem very nice too.
But this is the point of this forum. I seem to be reminding Christians of that a lot these days. It's for unbelievers like me to challenge Christian beliefs, and for Christians to defend them. That's why we're all here. That's the point.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

On that last part about the toothache, I believe that's our punishment. There is nothing worse than having a toothache and it always happens on a Friday so that you have to wait. Lol

So you wouldn't pray to God for relief from toothache?
I ask because I have seen other Christians on this site do so. It seems reasonable enough to me. God is a loving Father, why wouldn't He help His faithful children through healing?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I only ask what I can do for him. I can't remember ever asking anything for myself other than guidance. Free will has to run its course. If God was to interfere it wouldn't be our path. After Jesus reset everything we've been on our own. We live, we die and we make mistakes. I see this life as nothing more than a test. If you want the best servants you take those that give willingly not those that are forced. I am willing to use my time on this earth doing everything I can to help others. I ask nothing in return. If I am worthy and get rewarded that's great, if not I still wouldn't change a thing. My goals seem to line up with the teachings of Christ and always have even before I knew him.

Sounds like you're not the type of Christian I'm asking about, then. The Christians I'm thinking of do ask God for things. Sometimes for themselves, as God is a loving Father, and sometimes for others; and what could be more selfless than that?

 

[LightBearer]

Thank you. Honestly, I try to be more civil than friendly, because it's been my experience that people do not feel friendly when they are told that their most cherished beliefs are mistaken.

Tell me, if you had severe toothache, would you pray to God to take it away, heal you and make you feel better? If a friend had cancer, would you pray to God to heal them? If you lost a vitally important document, would you pray to God to help you find it?

Hi again InterestedAtheist.

Civil is good, works for me. So thank you for being civil.

Interesting questions above.

I checked your link:
The Theist's Guide to Converting Atheists - Daylight Atheism

Again, it raises some very appropriate and fair questions that deserve to be answered.

Here is a link to a small publication that answers some of the questions that your link posed, such as: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/gm
The Bible—God’s Word or Man’s?

Verified, specific prophecies that couldn’t have been contrived.
Chpt 9. Bible Prophecies That Came True.
Chpt 10. A Bible Prophecy You Have Seen Fulfilled.

Scientific knowledge in holy books that wasn’t available at the time.
Chpt 8. Science: Has It Proved the Bible Wrong?

Miraculous occurrences, especially if brought about through prayer.
Chpt 6. The Miracles—Did They Really Happen?

A genuinely flawless and consistent holy book.
Chpt 7. Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
Chpt 11. The Overall Harmony of the Bible.
Chpt 12. A Higher Source of Wisdom.

A religion without internal disputes or factions.
A religion whose followers have never committed or taken part in atrocities.
Chpt 3. The Bible’s False Friend.

Stay safe and well.
LB

 

[InterestedAtheist]

If I were to concede this point...what was your point?

My point is that anybody may say anything absolutely, like "I believe in God." and, yet, we may find something about them that makes us ask, "Does this person actually believe in God?".

I hope you will concede the point that the Founding Fathers deliberately designed a society in which Christianity has no part to play in the government. Because earlier - post #65, I believe - you said:

Like all the social institutions and technology you see post Messiah, e.g., hospitals (places of healing), medical advances (for healing and even bringing the dead back to life), charitable organizations (feeding and clothing the hungry), universal human rights (loving our neighbors as ourselves), etc...?

Now I made the point that this is highly misleading. Just because hospitals, medical advances, human rights, etc. existed at the same time as Christianity, and just because Christians engaged in these activities, that does not mean they get credit for their invention or sole use. there were and are hospitals, charities and healers before Christianity and outside Christianity. And, rebutting your point about Christianity getting credit for universal human rights, I pointed out that the United States, one of the pioneers in social freedom, justice and equality, was deliberately designed as an entirely secular state.

(takes breath)

I hope that's clear.

 

[Arc F1]

Sounds like you're not the type of Christian I'm asking about, then. The Christians I'm thinking of do ask God for things. Sometimes for themselves, as God is a loving Father, and sometimes for others; and what could be more selfless than that?

The book of Matthew tells us
“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

When I pray it's for his will and the needs of others. Have I asked in the past, of course I have but I always feel bad about it because there are so many that have needs greater than mine.

 

[Inkfingers]

Christians believe that they live in a universe in which God exists. But the thing is, they don't act like that. And I kind of wonder why. They do pray to God, yes. And they do talk to God, on occasion, so they say. And they preach the gospel, and convert others, or approve of them being converted.

But if God was actually real, you'd expect to see other things too.

You'd expect to see Christians praying to God for actual miracles, and receiving them. But you don't. I've been asking about this in a recent thread, and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. You see Christians addressing God in the blandest and most carefully-tailored prayers. God, please give me wisdom, or insight, or determination. God, please give me faith. God, please strengthen me in my time of trouble. God, please help my sister who is facing cancer; grant the doctors the wisdom and clarity to heal her. There is something deeply weird about this. Where is the "God, please cure my sister of cancer immediately," or "God, my tooth is hurting. Please could you make the root vanish?" Or "God, my poor, innocent baby died. Please, bring her back to life."

More than that: while Christians I've spoken to in the past have assured me that God is not a jinni, a genie, a lab rat, a magical hat or a wishing machine, you would expect to see some statistical data showing up. Lots of it, actually. Consider. People all over the world are praying to their gods. But if the Christians are right, only one of these gods is listening and responding. And that means that the effects of this should be statistically observable. To put it simply, it should be apparent that Christians are luckier than non-Christians, because they have the edge of praying to a God who listens and responds. Not all the time, of course. Sometimes God answers prayers yes, sometimes no, sometimes later. But compared to the non-Christians (who, presumably, either don't get any answers at all, or else never even pray) it should be quite easy to observe effects on a macro level. But it's not. Christians, whether on an individual basis, or as populations, are no luckier than anyone else. Which is strange, if they are right about the Christian God exist.

You'd expect to see Christians asking God things, as well as asking Him for things. Almost all Christians claim they talk to God, and many claim that He replies - actually speaks to them in an audible voice. Isn't it strange God never, ever says anything that the person didn't know already? To forestall the obvious response, I'm not talking about asking God what the millionth digit of pi is, or to help you in an exam, or trying to trick or trap God. But Christians have a line to the Infinite Intelligence. Seriously, aren't there any questions they'd like to ask Him? "God, how can I persuade my son to stop doing drugs?" "God, can you tell me what the answer to the Euthyphro Dilemma is?" "God, there's this Bible verse nobody seems to be able to understand. Can you tell us what You meant in it?"
The incuriosity is quite amazing.

Another thing. Christians believe that a heaven and a hell exists, and hope that they are going to go to heaven. But they don't act like this. They are sad when loved ones die. They cry at funerals. Why? Their loved ones have gone to heaven. They should be happy for them. Yes, they will miss them, but in terms of infinity they will see them almost at once again.

Also, they believe others are going to hell. Except...do they? Do they seriously, actually believe this? If so, they are acting in a very strange way. They don't seem to care in the slightest. We live in a world, according to Christians, where some people (a few) will soon depart to a place of unimaginable bliss, and others to a place of appalling horror...and Christians don't seem to care, or to do anything about it. They just carry on with their lives.

Maybe it's because the Christian God doesn't exist. That is the view of the majority of people on this planet, and the supermajority of people who have ever lived, that the Christians are incorrect in thinking that their God exists.
If so, that would explain why God never answers prayers with miracles, and why God never answers questions. And it would explain why Christians never ask for them. They've learned not to. They've learned that there are some kinds of prayers God just answers, and while God may speak to you about being strong or being loving, He never tells you anything you didn't already know. And perhaps they've also learned not to think too hard about this, or have learned to come up with rationalisations for it.

You actually raise some good questions.

I will get back to you when I have considered it some more...