Am I The Only One

[Cis.jd]

no. I don't know what you mean.. at all.

Can you give a better explanation?

There is no way you can not understand what that post means, after all the arguments you gave about how "being nice" doesn't get you to heaven and just "acceptance" of Christ. In other words a non-believer who has done more good isn't saved while a believer who doesn't do as much good is saved.

The concept is the same in that example, and I think you understand that clearly.

Good deeds for those that enter eternity are what we are rewarded for and get crowns and such..

Good deeds, for those that reject Christ, will make you friends and keep you out of jail.. here in this life.. but you are still going to have to pay for your sins...which is death.. eternal death.

The only way you achieve eternal life.. is by death.. Regardless of how nice you are.

So, you can pay for your sins with your own death.. or... with Christ's death.

But Christ already paid for sins. Your last 3 posts are awfully disconnected to the context of the argument by 100 miles, it's like you are just reaching for anything to reply to salvage your views.

 

[JacksBratt]

There is no way you can not understand what that post means, after all the arguments you gave about how "being nice" doesn't get you to heaven and just "acceptance" of Christ.

Actually, yes there is a possibility that some don't understand what others say.

Don't take offense... it's just a communication issue and we are on different tracks here.

In other words a non-believer who has done more good isn't saved while a believer who doesn't do as much good is saved.

Exactly.

This is because you cannot "do" enough to save your soul. There is no amount of "Good" that can be done by one individual to earn eternal life.

Otherwise.. Christ would not have had to die.. God could have just took the real good people.

The concept is the same in that example, and I think you understand that clearly.

Sorry but I found your example confusing. Not your fault...

But Christ already paid for sins. Your last 3 posts are awfully disconnected to the context of the argument by 100 miles, it's like you are just reaching for anything to reply to salvage your views.

Yes, Christ has paid for everyone's sins.. But.. in order to be covered by the blood and found righteous.. you need to accept Christ. Believe on His name.

He is not going to give eternal life to someone who denies Him and His work.

If you hire a kid to wash your car.. and they come over and are real nice and polite and talk to your son, daughter, pet your dog and compliment your wife on how nice she keeps the garden.... but doesn't wash your car.. are you going to pay him for washing your car?


Anyway, I've gone on long enough.. So I will leave you with this:

1/ The dept of sin is only paid by death.
2/ It can be your death.. or Christs death
3/ Nothing you can do, will ever earn enough points to pay your debt of sin.
4/ Nice people go to hell.
5/ Anyone, even bad people, can get eternal life.

 

[Cis.jd]

Exactly.

This is because you cannot "do" enough to save your soul. There is no amount of "Good" that can be done by one individual to earn eternal life.

Otherwise.. Christ would not have had to die.. God could have just took the real good people.

Yet, because of Christ we are no longer bound to that reality. When you read the Bible in it's whole, it clearly shows that God does look at the life of the human. In fact, in Revelations, he judged them by their works. You can pick out all the "look it says faith only", but picking verses and then ignoring the rest isn't taking the Bible as a whole.

For a believer who has no good done to others to just go in paradise, while a non-believer who has done as much good is the one is going to suffer unimaginably is appalling . Just recall the robber analogy, where the robber goes free while the hostage gets jail all because of what government establishment they subscribe too.

Please deserve a second chance, some do live their lives with out it. If it is a virtue for others to forgive even the gravest of sins, don't you think a holy and loving God would forgive any form of ignorance or emotional rejection?

If you hire a kid to wash your car.. and they come over and are real nice and polite and talk to your son, daughter, pet your dog and compliment your wife on how nice she keeps the garden.... but doesn't wash your car.. are you going to pay him for washing your car?


Anyway, I've gone on long enough.. So I will leave you with this:

1/ The dept of sin is only paid by death.
2/ It can be your death.. or Christs death
3/ Nothing you can do, will ever earn enough points to pay your debt of sin.
4/ Nice people go to hell.
5/ Anyone, even bad people, can get eternal life.

Washing my car involves work.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yet, because of Christ we are no longer bound to that reality. When you read the Bible in it's whole, it clearly shows that God does look at the life of the human. In fact, in Revelations, he judged them by their works. You can pick out all the "look it says faith only", but picking verses and then ignoring the rest isn't taking the Bible as a whole.

For a believer who has no good done to others to just go in paradise, while a non-believer who has done as much good is the one is going to suffer unimaginably is appalling . Just recall the robber analogy, where the robber goes free while the hostage gets jail all because of what government establishment they subscribe too.

Please deserve a second chance, some do live their lives with out it. If it is a virtue for others to forgive even the gravest of sins, don't you think a holy and loving God would forgive any form of ignorance or emotional rejection?

Well, I disagree. Why would God allow someone who denies His son into glory?


Why would anyone who denies Christ want to be there anyway?

Washing my car involves work.

My bad analogy....

God Bless..

We just disagree on this one.

 

[Cis.jd]

Well, I disagree. Why would God allow someone who denies His son into glory?

Why would anyone who denies Christ want to be there anyway?

Because God isn't insecure and he isn't a dictator who just created flawed beings with emotions, and values only himself that he needs these creations to appease him completely, or else.

People have various reasons of detracting from christianity, most of it is due to emotional/experiential reasons, and honestly his own claimed "followers" are one of the main causes of such.

 

[Saint Steven]

Matthew 5:26

Context says, in this lifetime.

Matthew 5:25-26
“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

 

[Saint Steven]

"...so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many [not all]. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." Hebrews 9:28 NKJV

Compare.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Then why have a judgment at all? You've just killed its purpose.

Most seem to forget that one of the options in judgment is mercy, which God is full of. Judgment doesn't automatically mean punishment. There is another verdict option.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry Rose but this is not a biblical view.

There is a biblical position for all three views of the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

 

[Saint Steven]

So, if this were true.. where do you draw the line..

A person lied a lot..
A person told white lies..
A person was mean and angry all the time..
A person was running around on their spouse and sexually promiscuous
A person stole from the rich..
A person stole from anyone.
A person drove drunk all the time
A person drove drunk and killed someone but was a nice guy.

That's a good point.

 

[Saint Steven]

The verse says that no unclean thing shall pass through them. Reprobates are unclean

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Saint Steven]

I haven't read all the responses but wanted to point out the Eastern Orthodox believe it's possible for unbelievers to be saved even after death, but not after the Final Judgement. I hope they are right. It's not the same as Universalism since not everyone will repent even after death and in torment.

Universalism originated from the Eastern church. (Greek speaking)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Saint Steven]

A good verse for you might be 2 Tim 3:16 then: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work".

Question: What was "all scripture" at the time that was written?

 

[Saint Steven]

God knows and He reveals the answer in the Bible to us...answer is NO.

What do you make of these?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

 

[hedrick]

Compare.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Right. One problem in these discussions is that many can mean all, and all can mean all kinds or all groups. So there can be ambiguity. However there are passages where the context of wording make it clear. I believe the rules of this forum don’t allow much to be said about this passage. This discussion is limited to inclusivism.

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay. Still it is not a proper Christian belief. Once your dead that are no second chances. God gives people countless chances and they reject Him consistently. Would you want someone in your house that hated you with a passion, no matter what you do they will not change their mind, you can be nice, give them everything and still they have a burning hatred toward you?

Something to consider. See the definition of "acknowledge" at the bottom of the post. Thanks. Every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe the rules of this forum prohibit exegesis of this passage.

This is a protected area for discussing Universalism.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right. One problem in these discussions is that many can mean all, and all can mean all kinds or all groups. So there can be ambiguity. However there are passages where the context of wording make it clear. I believe the rules of this forum don’t allow much to be said about this passage. This discussion is limited to inclusivism.

Notice that the reference is to THE many, not just "many".
And these are comparatives of the same groups. We know that "the many" who were made sinners means all. Therefore it follows that "the many" (same group) will be made righteous. Especially when the previous verse states it as "all people".

Saint Steven said: ↑
Compare.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Interesting, yes interesting. However once dead there are no second chances if one hears the Gospel and God says for those who hear the Gospel there is no excuse.

Consider this.

John 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

 

[Saint Steven]

Agreed...we are merciful, but we cannot add to His Word to do so.

Something to consider.
We are taught to love our enemies. (vs 44) This is a godly characteristic. (vs 48)
What should we expect God to do to his enemies then? Love, or hate and torture?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.