Am I The Only One

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

Well there is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and similar, as well as universalism.

I'd be more interested in why you think that is the case.

 

[April_Rose]

Well there is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and similar, as well as universalism.

I'd be more interested in why you think that is the case.

Does everybody have to have a reason to believe the way they do? Maybe it's just because they believe it.

 

[GenemZ]

Not sure how to,.. I always have to look up scripture and to know what I'm looking up. I don't have a lot memorized.

Then you should wait till you can before presenting such a challenge. Its not fair to others if you can not justify your stand. Its like crying wolf with the body of Christ.

 

[RushMAN]

Not everyone who is an unbeliever hates God,.. they just don't believe in God. Doesn't mean that they hate Him. I bet if you polled many of the atheists on this board they would tell you the same thing.

Interesting, yes interesting. However once dead there are no second chances if one hears the Gospel and God says for those who hear the Gospel there is no excuse.

They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Romans 1:19-21

Which leaves those who never heard and never knew. To me I think like CS Lewis said in The Last Battle in his Narnia series.

 

[GenemZ]

Not everyone who is an unbeliever hates God,.. they just don't believe in God.

When Jesus said if we are to be a true discipleship of his we must hate our own family members? "Hate own father and mother, etc."

The word hate does not mean as we usually associate with, to despise. It means to have an apathy towards God. Indifferent. Its equivalent to mom telling Johnny to eat his spinach, and Johnny says..."I hate spinach." Hate can translate into to having a total indifference to someone, or a thing. (Johnny does not despise spinach)

In other words? Unbelievers do hate God in various phases. If they did not, they would become believers. Yet, if God can draw them? And give them to Christ? The Spirit in them will give them the fruit of the Spirit, and they will find themselves able to love God.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It does look that way. I have to accept whatever God's truth is.

Agreed...we are merciful, but we cannot add to His Word to do so.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

It's cool that you said this because for some people this statement is part of why people believe this way. My brother wrote his master's thesis on this subject. The hypotheses (or was it the theory? I get confused) in his essay went like this:

Does God have the ability to save everyone? Yes Does God desire that everyone be saved and be with him? Yes. Ipso facto God's will be done always.

So though there are many verses that say "the only way to the father is through the son" There are also verses like this one :

1 John 2:2"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)

There are more verses with a similar message like:

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (NIV)

From Wikipedia about a word that was mistranslated in the Latin Vulgate

Christian universalists point towards the mistranslations of the Greek word αιών (Lit. aion), as giving rise to the idea of Eternal Hell, and the idea that some people will not be saved.[14][25][26]

This Greek word is the origin of the modern English word aeon, which refers to a period of time or an epoch.

The 19th century theologian Marvin Vincent wrote about the word aion, and the supposed connotations of "eternal" or "temporal":

Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. [...] Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

So based on this and there is more information like this. Another half a dozen Bible verses or so could lead anyone to the conclusion that God has the option of saving anyone if not everyone.

This topic really gets people fired up because in their mind they know for a fact only people like them can go to heaven. There are verses in the Bible that say they are correct in that thinking. It's probably the biggest contradiction in the Bible

But oh no! It's impossible for the Bible to contain contradictions. Well, there is are contradictions just above. Personally, I just let God figure all of that out and I try to do the right thing, putting my fate in God's hands where it belongs.

Thanks and yes - I try not to be a total monster myself over my faith - it happens though. I get all riled up and don’t mind a good fight (most Christians love a good controversy and scrap over scripture and application haha). Jesus is probably shaking his head at me haha.

 

[GenemZ]

Does everybody have to have a reason to believe the way they do? Maybe it's just because they believe it.

2 Timothy 4:3 tells us why...

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around
them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want
to hear.​

In Christ there is only one way... "the straight and narrow" - (sound doctrine).
With religious souls there are as many ways to be offered as their personal preferences dictate. That is why Jesus warned against the "broad and wide" road destroying the spiritual life we have been given.

They will not put up with sound doctrine because certain truths offend their sensibilities. Like? The Lake of Fire is really going to be the way the Bible says it will be. That is why Jesus said we will need to deny self and take up our cross if we are to follow Him. And, He was the Word made flesh... Whatever offends us in the Word of God, and we wish to deny it? Its denying the Lord.

...........

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Does everybody have to have a reason to believe the way they do? Maybe it's just because they believe it.

No - you do not have to have reasons to believe as you see fit. It’s up to you. Generally speaking - you have to explain your reasoning if you’re trying to persuade others. (Which you aren’t) I dont think. (Admittedly I haven’t read the whole 7 pages of posts). I guess you call it the burden of proof is where it’s for you to explain your reasons if trying to persuade. You don’t have burden of proof if you’re just saying what you think

 

[RushMAN]

Agree. The Bible tells us to

Quietly trust yourself to Christ your Lord, and if anybody asks why you believe as you do, be ready to tell him, and do it in a gentle and respectful way. 1 Peter 3:15

 

[zoidar]

Not everyone who is an unbeliever hates God,.. they just don't believe in God. Doesn't mean that they hate Him. I bet if you polled many of the atheists on this board they would tell you the same thing.

Jesus says: “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." /Luke 14:26

“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." /Matthew 10:37

If you look at these two verses, what do they tell you? "Hate" here means to "love less". In other words to put others and other things than Jesus first in life. In that sense all unbelievers hate Jesus.

Most unbelievers don't know they have an aversion towards Jesus, but in many cases when they are confronted with someone truly worshipping Jesus from the heart, they get irritated, angry or even hateful.

 

[April_Rose]

No - you do not have to have reasons to believe as you see fit. It’s up to you. Generally speaking - you have to explain your reasoning if you’re trying to persuade others. (Which you aren’t) I dont think. (Admittedly I haven’t read the whole 7 pages of posts). I guess you call it the burden of proof is where it’s for you to explain your reasons if trying to persuade. You don’t have burden of proof if you’re just saying what you think

No,.. I'm not trying to persuade anybody of anything so I don't think I have to have reasons and btw @genez, I literally hate spinach LOL Popeye can have as much as he wants to but you won't see me eating any. Yuck!!

 

[April_Rose]

Also,.. doesn't the Muslim faith say that if you're not a Muslim you burn in Hell? Well I'm not worried about that because that's not what I believe. I'm not a Muslim. Seems like every religion has their own scare tactics and I don't believe God works like that. I came to Him because I love Him,.. not because I'm afraid that I'm going to burn in Hell if I don't.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Also,.. doesn't the Muslim faith say that if you're not a Muslim you burn in Hell? Well I'm not worried about that because that's not what I believe. I'm not a Muslim. Seems like every religion has their own scare tactics and I don't believe God works like that. I came to Him because I love Him,.. not because I'm afraid that I'm going to burn in Hell if I don't.

Out of the love you have for Jesus - you may choose to try and form more nuanced beliefs. You might turn to biblical scholarship, theology, prayer to learn more. Over time - you can use your knowledge to help others struggling with their faith and the same questions you once had. Personally- I believe when I meet Jesus - I’ll find I was wrong about a lot of stuff. he can show me where I was mistaken. I can’t be sure I’ve got it right 100% - I hope he will have grace on me for those things.

 

[April_Rose]

Out of the love you have for Jesus - you may choose to try and form more nuanced beliefs. You might turn to biblical scholarship, theology, prayer to learn more. Over time - you can use your knowledge to help others struggling with their faith and the same questions you once had. Personally- I believe when I meet Jesus - I’ll find I was wrong about a lot of stuff. he can show me where I was mistaken. I can’t be sure I’ve got it right 100% - I hope he will have grace on me for those things.

I'm not sure I'm right either. I could be wrong. We all could be wrong and there's no God at all. I just go by what I believe in my heart as well as what the rest of us do and that's the only thing we can do since it's all based on faith and not by facts.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I'm not sure I'm right either. I could be wrong. We all could be wrong and there's no God at all. I just go by what I believe in my heart as well as what the rest of us do and that's the only thing we can do since it's all based on faith and not by facts.

Yes - a fact is for example - the bible records Jesus as having said “love your enemies”. The opinion bit is where you come to a conclusion as to what he meant by that. That is your opinion - since you can’t be sure your conclusion is about his statement is correct. You will have your reasons for your opinion, but, your opinion might be incorrect - most people are arguing over the opinion bit. That’s where they clash their reasons together and try to figure out who has the best reasoning. (Mostly - we all just disagree and argue though haha)

 

[April_Rose]

Yes - a fact is for example - the bible records Jesus as having said “love your enemies”. The opinion bit is where you come to a conclusion as to what he meant by that. That is your opinion - since you can’t be sure your conclusion is about his statement is correct. You will have your reasons for your opinion, but, your opinion might be incorrect - most people are arguing over the opinion bit. That’s where they clash their reasons together and try to figure out who has the best reasoning. (Mostly - we all just disagree and argue though haha)

Wrong! Nothing Jesus said is fact,.. we can't prove that He said what He said in the Bible. Anything to do with Christianity is by faith not fact. It's a proven fact that Jesus lived and walked the earth, but it is not a fact that He was the Son of God because it can't be proven. It's all to do with belief.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I'm not sure I'm right either. I could be wrong. We all could be wrong and there's no God at all. I just go by what I believe in my heart as well as what the rest of us do and that's the only thing we can do since it's all based on faith and not by facts.

Allow me to disagree with the last sentence. I became a real Christian because of my studies and observations as a scientist, and now I can agree with Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, Blaise Pascal, Max Planck, Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler and many many other famous scientists whose experience you can summarize with the words of Heisenberg:
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you".

I've never been surer about God's existence than after studying natural sciences.

 

[April_Rose]

Allow me to disagree with the last sentence. I became a real Christian because of my studies and observations as a scientist, and now I can agree with Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, Blaise Pascal, Max Planck, Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler and many many other famous scientists whose experience you can summarize with the words of Heisenberg:
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you".

I've never been surer about God's existence than after studying natural sciences.

It's still not fact as in recorded in science books or history books that there is in fact a God. It's all to do with faith and I really think that's a lot more powerful than if it was a proven fact.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Wrong! Nothing Jesus said is fact,.. we can't prove that He said what He said in the Bible. Anything to do with Christianity is by faith not fact. It's a proven fact that Jesus lived and walked the earth, but it is not a fact that He was the Son of God because it can't be proven. It's all to do with belief.

Haha That’s where nuance comes in. Notice I said “...the bible records Jesus ....”. I didn’t say Jesus said it. But good effort though.