Am I The Only One

[throughfiierytrial]

I agree in principle. However, OT believers looked to Yahweh, the creator god, without having the slightest clue he would take on flesh and die for their sins.
Understanding the technicalities of how God wrought salvation, is not a requirement for benefiting from what God did in Christ for the OT saints like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Hezekiah or even Mary and Joseph, etc.

The OT saved looked for God to fulfill His Genesis 3:15 promise...there was also an unraveling of the nature of the Messiah as time progressed.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Not true God promised He would do that very thing in the OT. Just off the top of my head these passages come to mind. Mal 3:1, Zech 12, Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, 53, Psalm 22 etc........

Nice and add to that Isaiah 9:6-7

 

[Cis.jd]

Cis.Jd... we are to be moral people. You are correct.

If you boil it down.. we all start as sinners. Some sinners acknowledge that they are sinners.
Some of these people acknowledge that they need to change, in order to be better people.
Some of these people realize that they have no way of paying for these sins themselves. If they love God and want eternal life.. Christ is their only way out.. the only way to the father. These people accept Christ and receive eternal life.

Of those few that make these choices.. to acknowledge their sinful nature, that they need to change, that Christ is the only way and make that decision to follow Him...

Of these few.. they will all have varying levels of ability to follow a moral path.

They will all be changed creatures at heart..

Some will be brilliant and bright examples of Christ's love. Fully obvious good at heart and drastically changing their lives.
On the opposite end.. some will struggle with demons and addictions and strong personal issues that will , from our point of view, be seen with little change.

It is not for me to look at the actions of some other person and state that they are a "bad person" due to their actions..

Only God knows their heart and their struggles.

So, yes, we should be visual examples of a moral and ethical walk with Christ.. But that is not what saves us.

We are not to be stumbling blocks to those who don't believe.. but.. we are still children of Christ and, for that reason, will have eternal life.

But I am asking, why do we need to be moral? There is really no point in it. I never said "we had to".. i've been asking you to tell me what the point to it is, and this entire post does not explain why it's needed.

When you illustrate your views on God in simple form, it is saying that he doesn't care about how good you are to others because if you refuse to worship him (which is the result of accepting him) then it's completely meaningless. What entity/being just wants to be worship and has no care about how good/bad you are, other than the devil himself?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Nice and add to that Isaiah 9:6-7

I did next to Isaiah 7:14

 

[hedrick]

There are plenty of people who think that God unfortunately doesn’t exist, but if he did, he would want them to love their neighbors and forgive their enemies.

There are plenty of people who think God does exist, but he wants them to be angry at everyone who doesn’t agree with them and persecute the ones they can get away with.

It think it’s quite possible that God will regard the first category as his actual followers.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

 

[JacksBratt]

But I am asking, why do we need to be moral? There is really no point in it. I never said "we had to".. i've been asking you to tell me what the point to it is, and this entire post does not explain why it's needed.

When you illustrate your views on God in simple form, it is saying that he doesn't care about how good you are to others because if you refuse to worship him (which is the result of accepting him) then it's completely meaningless. What entity/being just wants to be worship and has no care about how good/bad you are, other than the devil himself?

First, what do we "need" to be moral for?

This needs to be established before I can comment.

Do we need to be moral for salvation?
Do we need to be moral for hygienic, STD, marrying of relatives etc?
Do we need to be moral for a society to be functional, livable, and safe?
Do we need to me moral for the success of business, commerce and economy?

I think, excepting salvation, it is all of these.... What would this world be like without morals? Even the most primitive tribes knew that possessions were not to be stolen.. Wives and husbands were respected. Killing was wrong. Hurting people in anyway was wrong, selfishness did not fit well with culture, leadership and greed was frowned upon.

Our hearts have been imprinted with the knowledge of right and wrong... thus.. morals..

We need them to survive in a civilized way. Not for salvation.. but just to survive as a human race.

 

[Cis.jd]

First, what do we "need" to be moral for?

This needs to be established before I can comment.

Do we need to be moral for salvation?
Do we need to be moral for hygienic, STD, marrying of relatives etc?
Do we need to be moral for a society to be functional, livable, and safe?
Do we need to me moral for the success of business, commerce and economy?

I think, excepting salvation, it is all of these.... What would this world be like without morals? Even the most primitive tribes knew that possessions were not to be stolen.. Wives and husbands were respected. Killing was wrong. Hurting people in anyway was wrong, selfishness did not fit well with culture, leadership and greed was frowned upon.

Our hearts have been imprinted with the knowledge of right and wrong... thus.. morals..

We need them to survive in a civilized way. Not for salvation.. but just to survive as a human race.

Why does it need to be established? It's a simple question. What is the use of Morals - as in doing good, being good to others.. why is that needed? Your answer in the last sentence about survival is obviously invented. There is no where in the Bible that states it is for human survival, at the same time there are so many problems and questions that open up from this.

For example: There are Homeless people who steal to survival, stealing is immoral, so what about this?

If the affiliation/subscription to a god is the only thing that matters, then why do we need to do respect husbands, not kill, or the survival of the human race?

 

[mlepfitjw]

But I am asking, why do we need to be moral? There is really no point in it. I never said "we had to".. i've been asking you to tell me what the point to it is, and this entire post does not explain why it's needed.

When you illustrate your views on God in simple form, it is saying that he doesn't care about how good you are to others because if you refuse to worship him (which is the result of accepting him) then it's completely meaningless. What entity/being just wants to be worship and has no care about how good/bad you are, other than the devil himself?

Hey you, @Cis.jd. Hope you are doing well. Why do we need to be moral?

You asking this question leads me to believe to some degree as human beings we have free will and choices to make in life.

We have these choices which comes by our flesh: murder, steal, lie, cheat, manipulate, hate, disobedience state regulated laws, envy, wrath, strife, drunkeness, revellings, fighting, lasciviousness, adultery, greed, and some more just like this.

As humans when we look others in the nature of our flesh, see many of these things as wrong, that we shouldn't be hating, murdering, lying to each other, stealing, manipulating others. They are looked as unmoral.

What is interesting however, is that Jesus Christ paid for all of these sins.

When we look at God, and what he did by sending Yeshua/Jesus to come down from being the Word of God, and live a life on this earth. We see Yeshua/Jesus teach on fundamentally life itself.

From what do you do when you see a person laying in the street that may be dead? Do you walk past them, and no care, or do you try to see what is wrong and help if it were possible. You can even say maybe the man is holding with every strength he has off the edge of a mountain, and there are people walking by while he is screaming for help.

There are teachings about loving your enemy, and your neighbor as yourself, teachings of prayer, resurrection, the spirit, and the Kingdom of God.

Looking at Jesus/Yeshua we see he died on the cross, when we look at him, we die to. We die because of the spirit that is given to us from what He had taught.

Now we see Jesus Christ was buried after dying, and what happened when God raised Him up from the dead? He was given new life, and that is the same thing with us. We are given new life from what you may ask? The spirit that resides in us.

So we see a transition of the state of man from the fleshly ways, to the new spiritual ways.

What does the spiritual ways produce in a persons life who is a believer in God, and Yeshua ?

The spiritual ways produce in a believers life, that of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against which there is no law.

Therefore to answer you question of why do we need to be moral? @Cis.jd

Well we have a choice we can either do wrong, or do right and from what I believe to do right is to have God working with-in a believer to show the light of God, rather than that of the darkness that can come from the world.

Which comes by and through on an individual level, of someone building their relationship with God, in faith, and in love.

Scriptures used (Galatians 5:19-25) (The Good News Hope of Yeshua Christ, the Spirit, and God the Father who is the giver of all things good)

 

[Cis.jd]

Hey you, @Cis.jd. Hope you are doing well. Why do we need to be moral?

You asking this question leads me to believe to some degree as human beings we have free will and choices to make in life.

We have these choices which comes by our flesh: murder, steal, lie, cheat, manipulate, hate, disobedience state regulated laws, envy, wrath, strife, drunkeness, revellings, fighting, lasciviousness, adultery, greed, and some more just like this.

As humans when we look others in the nature of our flesh, see many of these things as wrong, that we shouldn't be hating, murdering, lying to each other, stealing, manipulating others. They are looked as unmoral.

What is interesting however, is that Jesus Christ paid for all of these sins.

When we look at God, and what he did by sending Yeshua/Jesus to come down from being the Word of God, and live a life on this earth. We see Yeshua/Jesus teach on fundamentally life itself.

From what do you do when you see a person laying in the street that may be dead? Do you walk past them, and no care, or do you try to see what is wrong and help if it were possible. You can even say maybe the man is holding with every strength he has off the edge of a mountain, and there are people walking by while he is screaming for help.

There are teachings about loving your enemy, and your neighbor as yourself, teachings of prayer, resurrection, the spirit, and the Kingdom of God.

Looking at Jesus/Yeshua we see he died on the cross, when we look at him, we die to. We die because of the spirit that is given to us from what He had taught.

Now we see Jesus Christ was buried after dying, and what happened when God raised Him up from the dead? He was given new life, and that is the same thing with us. We are given new life from what you may ask? The spirit that resides in us.

So we see a transition of the state of man from the fleshly ways, to the new spiritual ways.

What does the spiritual ways produce in a persons life who is a believer in God, and Yeshua ?

The spiritual ways produce in a believers life, that of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against which there is no law.

Therefore to answer you question of why do we need to be moral? @Cis.jd

Well we have a choice we can either do wrong, or do right and from what I believe to do right is to have God working with-in a believer to show the light of God, rather than that of the darkness that can come from the world.

Which comes by and through on an individual level, of someone building their relationship with God, in faith, and in love.

Scriptures used (Galatians 5:19-25) (The Good News Hope of Yeshua Christ, the Spirit, and God the Father who is the giver of all things good)

I know why we need to be moral, i'm using the question to challenge specific views here.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Getting back to the OP...
While it is right as a Christian to always love, and love includes among other things to always hope, Christians must not live by an anti-Biblical principle. While one could say we always hope God found a way for a seemingly lost one to be saved, for Romans quotes...I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy (Romans 9:15). We leave it to God as the ultimate Judge.
The great commission in Mark is however condemning of the unbeliever...but again, only God knows the heart.
Mark 16:15-16:
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Hebrews 11:5-6:
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

 

[JacksBratt]

Why does it need to be established? It's a simple question. What is the use of Morals - as in doing good, being good to others.. why is that needed? Your answer in the last sentence about survival is obviously invented. There is no where in the Bible that states it is for human survival, at the same time there are so many problems and questions that open up from this.

For example: There are Homeless people who steal to survival, stealing is immoral, so what about this?

If the affiliation/subscription to a god is the only thing that matters, then why do we need to do respect husbands, not kill, or the survival of the human race?

I guess.. I don't understand what you are getting at..

A person who believes in Christ and His ways.. would have no question as to why we need morals.

Morals are even logical to those who don't follow Christ.

So, sorry, but I do not know what you are driving at.

 

[Cis.jd]

I guess.. I don't understand what you are getting at..

A person who believes in Christ and His ways.. would have no question as to why we need morals.

Morals are even logical to those who don't follow Christ.

So, sorry, but I do not know what you are driving at.

of course, but this is the problem about your views. This is where I am getting at. If you are going to illustrate that being good and doing good, has no matter at all and all the basis of you going to heaven is through an allegiance to a deity, then you are logically showing that morals are meaningless.

God is not shallow nor insecure that he excludes any form of goodness that a person has done if that person doesn't give him any form of attention. This is a definition of a Dictator.

 

[empiric35]

Rose2020: I'd suggest Googling the historical concept of the "Harrowing of Hell" for views you may find compatible with yours.

 

[April_Rose]

Rose2020: I'd suggest Googling the historical concept of the "Harrowing of Hell" for views you may find compatible with yours.

Can you just summarize it in layman's terms?

 

[Francis Drake]

Not true God promised He would do that very thing in the OT. Just off the top of my head these passages come to mind. Mal 3:1, Zech 12, Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, 53, Psalm 22 etc........

Your problem is that virtually nobody understood the Messianic prophecies until after the event. This is proved by the continual reaction of the disciples whenever Jesus alluded to his coming death.
Even after his death, they continued to live in defeat instead of faith until the risen Jesus arrived to ram it home, ie. Thomas's "I will not believe....".
So absolutely not, the OT believers were not looking for a Messiah who would die for them. They were looking for a warrior king to drive the Romans out and restore the kingdom.

BTW, even if your verses were relevant, they give no help for the people who lived and died before the time they were spoken, which was quite late on.

The OT Messianic prophecies were largely understood in hindsight, not foresight.

 

[empiric35]

Can you just summarize it in layman's terms?

The term refers to a number of beliefs around the core notion that Christ released all the denizens of hell after his crucifixion and when he "descended into hell" per the Apostle's Creed. This is the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum, though, and I don't want to start a major theological argument (which is likely to result with a more thorough exegesis) with my first post.

In brief, Christianity has both exoteric (for everyone) and esoteric (for the few) doctrine, and one must be careful on the -overall- benefit of presenting certain concepts publically.

Good fortune with your search.

 

[April_Rose]

The term refers to a number of beliefs around the core notion that Christ released all the denizens of hell after his crucifixion and when he "descended into hell" per the Apostle's Creed. This is the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum, though, and I don't want to start a major theological argument (which is likely to result with a more thorough exegesis) with my first post.

In brief, Christianity has both exoteric (for everyone) and esoteric (for the few) doctrine, and one must be careful on the -overall- benefit of presenting certain concepts publically.

Good fortune with your search.

Understandable. The only thing I don't like so far is when people tell me Christians shouldn't believe what I believe and that I shouldn't believe it. It's like since when is any of that your business? All that this thread was created for is the fact that I'm curious if others believe like me. Not asking for opinions from the peanut gallery on whether or not I should believe it because that just gets irritating and annoying.

 

[Lost4words]

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

I always say, let God be the judge.

He is mercy and love.

 

[empiric35]

Understandable. The only thing I don't like so far is when people tell me Christians shouldn't believe what I believe and that I shouldn't believe it. It's like since when is any of that your business? All that this thread was created for is the fact that I'm curious if others believe like me. Not asking for opinions from the peanut gallery on whether or not I should believe it because that just gets irritating and annoying.

Agreed. In the end, you have faith, you have salvation, and God will correct any theological errors you, or I, or anyone has, in heaven. There are divine Mysteries.