Am I The Only One

[ViaCrucis]

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

You're not the only one. That Gods grace does not have a cut off point, or that we can't speak definitively of what may or may not happen post judgment--and thus leave such things to God--is actually very much something many Christians, down through the last two millennia, recognized.

But it has also always been a matter which Christians have understood to be a difficult question, and indeed, perhaps one we should not become too bogged down by--for what is of paramount importance is the exclusive and particular truth of Christ, of God's salvation of the world through Christ, and that it is only by the grace of God, through faith in Christ, that we can be saved. But as long as we are strong and mature in our faith on this matter, then and only then might we acknowledge what we do not and cannot know.

So, for example, Dr. Luther in a letter written to a Hans von Reichenberg dated to 1522 includes this statement,

"It would be a completely different question to ask whether God could grant faith to a few at the moment of their death or after death and thereby save them through faith. Who would doubt that he could do this? But no one can prove that he does do this. For we only read that he has already raised the dead and given them faith. No matter what he does, whether he grants faith or not, it is impossible for anyone to be saved without faith. Otherwise all preaching and the Gospel and faith itself would be futile, false, and deceptive, since the entire Gospel makes faith necessary."

So we have here, actually, an important line of thought that is quite important in the Lutheran tradition--and that is the distinction and recognition between the Ordered Means or Ordered Power of God (what God has revealed, given, instructed, and ordered for His purposes) and the Absolute Means or Absolute Power of God (what God can do absolutely as God). Luther addresses this distinction, in fact, in another of his letters actually speaks of how the Christian should address the tragedy of children who die in a miscarriage or during childbirth--having perished before they could receive Baptism and hear God's saving word. We should not assume that children who die before baptism are somehow without hope of salvation, but rather we should pray and hope.

But this is the distinction between God's ordered means and God's absolute means. The ordered means is that we are saved by God's grace, through faith, on Christ's account alone, and God accomplishes this for us--granting us faith--through the preached Gospel, and through the Sacraments. So that, as we read in Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Thus we see that faith is necessary, which is why Christ commissioned His Apostles--and thus His Church--to preach the Gospel to all nations, to make disciples of them, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. For this is how God has so ordered things that through these Means God is at work, converting sinners and making them believers.

But of God's absolute means, His absolute power? We must reserve to God alone. Thus we can say how God saves, for He has told us; but we cannot say that God is unable to accomplish salvation outside of this ordered means. For if God grants faith to one after they have died, through some absolute, ineffable, incomprehensible means not revealed to us--that is God's prerogative as God. And, truly, glory be to God in all things.

So we must rightly understand the ordered and the absolute; we speak concerning what is revealed and ordered, and we do not engage in endless speculation about God's absolute--though we pray and hope. For God is, indeed, as we read in 1 Timothy 4:10, "the Savior of all men".

So the two must be held in tandem, confessing what has been given as true; and at the same time not allowing ourselves to endless speculation--one way or the other--and trust solely in God to be Himself. He is good, we are not; He is just, we are not; He is righteous, we are not. Therefore whatever is to be, that has not been said to us, will be, and God is just and good and kind and loving in so doing--and we should be confident in this. To put our faith in Christ, and to trust that God has all these things within His hands, even if we do not have any idea how all things shall ultimately look and work out in the end.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[d taylor]

The OT looks forward to Christ and the NT looks back on the life of Christ. Salvation has never changed its always been faith in the LORD that saves. And Christ is that LORD.

The entire OT sacrificial system pointed forward to Christ and the NT looks back on His sacrifice and all its fulfillment in the OT.

Read the book of Hebrews.

hope this helps !!!

It is faith in the Messiah/Christ, that is the name that Jesus place importance on when Jesus was presenting who He was to Israel. To believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah and trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.”

Using Lord is to close to the lordship salvation, which i see as a work/obedience based salvation.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It is faith in the Messiah/Christ, that is the name that Jesus place importance on when Jesus was presenting who He was to Israel. To believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah and trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.”

Using Lord is to close to the lordship salvation, which i see as a work/obedience based salvation.

Lordship is not an option its who He is, the Sovereign LORD. You cannot have Him as your Savior apart from His Lordship.

Jesus said in Luke 6:46- Why do you call Me Lord and not do what I say ?

Calling Him your Lord means obedience to Him.

 

[d taylor]

Lordship is not an option its who He is, the Sovereign LORD. You cannot have Him as your Savior apart from His Lordship.

Jesus said in Luke 6:46- Why do you call Me Lord and not do what I say ?

Calling Him your Lord means obedience to Him.

I was not saying Jesus is not Lord, I was saying Jesus when He came presenting Himself to the nation of Israel. He emphasized that He was the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh.

And a person can trust in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life, and not have or make The Messiah Lord of their life.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I was not saying Jesus is not Lord, I was saying Jesus when He came presenting Himself to the nation of Israel. He emphasized that He was the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh.

And a person can trust in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life, and not have or make The Messiah Lord of their life.

I believe you are misinformed as Jesus is called LORD over 600 times in the New Testament. He also referred to Himself as Lord on numerous occasions.

 

[d taylor]

I believe you are misinformed as Jesus is called LORD over 600 times in the New Testament. He also referred to Himself as Lord on numerous occasions.

Show me a verse or verses that show, when Jesus is presenting to the nation of Israel who He is. That He presents Himself as the promised Lord from the Tanakh.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Show me a verse or verses that show, when Jesus is presenting to the nation of Israel who He is. That He presents Himself as the promised Lord from the Tanakh.

Mark 2:23-28
23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Matt 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Matt 22:44
'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'?

 

[d taylor]

Mark 2:23-28
23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Matt 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Matt 22:44
'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'?

I did not say when Jesus uses Lord as a Title. Show me when Jesus is presenting who He is to the nation of Israel. Show where He presents Himself as the promised Lord from the Tanakh.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

read the matt 22 passage quoted from the tanakh and He applies it to Himself.

 

[JacksBratt]

Well If the only thing required to be ok in God's eyes is through acknowledging him, then what is the use of morals? I mean, if you edited your paragraph by replacing "God" with someone else it would be a description of someone who is very insecure and conceited.


This is not an example of a bad person, this is a description of someone who is flawed. The presence of regret is a sign of a good person who made mistakes in his life that he wishes he never did.

It is not just about "acknowledging Him"... Even Satan acknowledges Christ.

It is denying Him that will damn you.

Christians must accept that they are sinners in need of a savior.. and act on that to believing on Christ.

The unsaved are those that don't.

So... you can have very nice people, good people.. that are not saved.

You can also have very abrasive people... who are still saved..

God does not look at us as we do.. He sees the heart.. He is the only one that can know who is saved.

Niceness..... is not the source of salvation.

Should Christians be displaying Christ's love through them.. of course.. But.. that is not always the case.

What is always the case... is... when someone who is really "nice" who denies God.. is not saved.

 

[April_Rose]

I don't believe it. But lots of people believe that sort of thing, it is called various things like Universal Reconciliation or Universal Salvation, Origenism etc.

Well, I already said quite a few times now that I'm not a universalist so we can cross that off the list.

You are not going to get people to agree with your beliefs if you have no reasoning behind it.

I don't care if you agree or not I was just curious.

You're not the only one. That Gods grace does not have a cut off point, or that we can't speak definitively of what may or may not happen post judgment--and thus leave such things to God--is actually very much something many Christians, down through the last two millennia, recognized.

But it has also always been a matter which Christians have understood to be a difficult question, and indeed, perhaps one we should not become too bogged down by--for what is of paramount importance is the exclusive and particular truth of Christ, of God's salvation of the world through Christ, and that it is only by the grace of God, through faith in Christ, that we can be saved. But as long as we are strong and mature in our faith on this matter, then and only then might we acknowledge what we do not and cannot know.

So, for example, Dr. Luther in a letter written to a Hans von Reichenberg dated to 1522 includes this statement,

"It would be a completely different question to ask whether God could grant faith to a few at the moment of their death or after death and thereby save them through faith. Who would doubt that he could do this? But no one can prove that he does do this. For we only read that he has already raised the dead and given them faith. No matter what he does, whether he grants faith or not, it is impossible for anyone to be saved without faith. Otherwise all preaching and the Gospel and faith itself would be futile, false, and deceptive, since the entire Gospel makes faith necessary."

So we have here, actually, an important line of thought that is quite important in the Lutheran tradition--and that is the distinction and recognition between the Ordered Means or Ordered Power of God (what God has revealed, given, instructed, and ordered for His purposes) and the Absolute Means or Absolute Power of God (what God can do absolutely as God). Luther addresses this distinction, in fact, in another of his letters actually speaks of how the Christian should address the tragedy of children who die in a miscarriage or during childbirth--having perished before they could receive Baptism and hear God's saving word. We should not assume that children who die before baptism are somehow without hope of salvation, but rather we should pray and hope.

But this is the distinction between God's ordered means and God's absolute means. The ordered means is that we are saved by God's grace, through faith, on Christ's account alone, and God accomplishes this for us--granting us faith--through the preached Gospel, and through the Sacraments. So that, as we read in Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Thus we see that faith is necessary, which is why Christ commissioned His Apostles--and thus His Church--to preach the Gospel to all nations, to make disciples of them, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. For this is how God has so ordered things that through these Means God is at work, converting sinners and making them believers.

But of God's absolute means, His absolute power? We must reserve to God alone. Thus we can say how God saves, for He has told us; but we cannot say that God is unable to accomplish salvation outside of this ordered means. For if God grants faith to one after they have died, through some absolute, ineffable, incomprehensible means not revealed to us--that is God's prerogative as God. And, truly, glory be to God in all things.

So we must rightly understand the ordered and the absolute; we speak concerning what is revealed and ordered, and we do not engage in endless speculation about God's absolute--though we pray and hope. For God is, indeed, as we read in 1 Timothy 4:10, "the Savior of all men".

So the two must be held in tandem, confessing what has been given as true; and at the same time not allowing ourselves to endless speculation--one way or the other--and trust solely in God to be Himself. He is good, we are not; He is just, we are not; He is righteous, we are not. Therefore whatever is to be, that has not been said to us, will be, and God is just and good and kind and loving in so doing--and we should be confident in this. To put our faith in Christ, and to trust that God has all these things within His hands, even if we do not have any idea how all things shall ultimately look and work out in the end.

-CryptoLutheran

Can you please rephrase this into simpler terms? I can't understand it otherwise due to my special needs.

 

[hedrick]

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

You didn't ask for arguments for and against, but how many believe this.

First, there are several positions. Roughly:
* exclusivism: only Christians can be saved
* inclusivism: non-Christians can be saved, but not all are
* universalism: everyone ends up saved (possibly after some punishment)

You seem to be asking about inclusivism. This position has been taken by some well-known leaders, such as Wesley. But it's less common than exclusivism among traditional Christianity.

Currently, the Catholic church and the mainline Protestant denominations seem to accept it officially, or at least consider that salvation of non-Christians is possible. Evangelicals are convinced that it's wrong.

Lifeway says

"Just under half of Americans (45 percent) say there are many ways to heaven—which conflicts with traditional views about salvation being linked to faith in Jesus.
Catholics (67 percent) and Mainline Protestants (55 percent) are most likely to say heaven’s gates are wide open with many ways in. Evangelicals (19 percent) and Black Protestants (33 percent) are more skeptical."

Generally Christians who believe in inclusivism believe that non-Christians who are saved are still saved by Christ. There are many passages in the NT saying that Jesus died for everyone. Rom 2 and other passages can reasonably be read as talking about salvation of non-Christians. (It's actually talking about Gentiles, but in the current context that would seem to include non-Christians.)

The Biblical problem here is that the Bible doesn't give a clear answer to how God will judge people. It gives a clear answer to what we're supposed to believe and act. But no one does that perfectly, and it doesn't say exactly what the limits will be on who will be accepted. That's why some traditions, e.g. Orthodox and probably Luther, say that Christianity is the only real way to salvation, but God is still free to accept others, and in some cases may do so.

There's another concept you'll hear about in these discussions, "pluralism." This is the belief that all religions lead equally to God. Most Christian inclusivists are not pluralists. They believe that Christ is the only way to salvation, but that he died for all, and may accept some non-Christians.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes the death (Christ) was the payment for blood God chose when Adam and Eve sinned. And this Jesus and His death took away the sin of the world (everyone who has lived), that is why people are judged at the great white throne, for their works. And that is also why they will be headed for the lake of fire, not because of theirs sins. But because they never received the free gift of Gods Eternal Life.

But really my contention is against, the ones who say after Christ death and resurrection the way of salvation changed. That a person has to believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose three days later. Using 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 as the Gospel that saves now.

Well, I would say that it did change.

IMO.. and only my opinion...

All people before and after the cross.. have their sins paid for by the work of Christ on the Cross.

However, before the cross, people attained salvation by the law.. and sacrifices. Their faith in this act.

After the cross.. people attained salvation by accepting the truth of the cross and Christ as their savior. No more sacrifices are required..

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Matthew 24:49-51:
and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are other, and many other, passages which indicate that Judgement Day is just that: the time one's record ends and the time to be judged by that record.
Some here want to seduce with some so called wise and persuasive words even quoting so called father's of Christian denominations. Don't be seduced, we must Watch and Pray continually and all the more as we see The Day approaching.

 

[Cis.jd]

It is not just about "acknowledging Him"... Even Satan acknowledges Christ.

It is denying Him that will damn you.

Christians must accept that they are sinners in need of a savior.. and act on that to believing on Christ.

The unsaved are those that don't.

So... you can have very nice people, good people.. that are not saved.

You can also have very abrasive people... who are still saved..

God does not look at us as we do.. He sees the heart.. He is the only one that can know who is saved.

Niceness..... is not the source of salvation.

Should Christians be displaying Christ's love through them.. of course.. But.. that is not always the case.

What is always the case... is... when someone who is really "nice" who denies God.. is not saved.

But you didn't answer my question, what is the use of morals?

If the way I treat people and live my life as good as I can is completely useless, and it's all about just an allegiance/acceptance to a deity, then what are morals for? Why call him a righteous judge, when he doesn't judge anything?

 

[Goodhuman]

Oh I do I do!
Thankfully I don't have to pay for my sins, Christ did that for me.

You bet!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can you please rephrase this into simpler terms? I can't understand it otherwise due to my special needs.

Salvation is exclusively in Christ.

We can't say that God won't save people who never confessed Christ in this life, but neither can we know that He will.

So we preach what we know: Christ came into the world to save sinners, and salvation is found in Him and what He has done.

That means we know where salvation is found: The Church, because that's where the Gospel is preached and the Sacraments administered.

Everything else--what we do not know--we leave up to God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Francis Drake]

The OT looks forward to Christ and the NT looks back on the life of Christ. Salvation has never changed its always been faith in the LORD that saves. And Christ is that LORD.

The entire OT sacrificial system pointed forward to Christ and the NT looks back on His sacrifice and all its fulfillment in the OT.

Read the book of Hebrews.

hope this helps !!!

I agree in principle. However, OT believers looked to Yahweh, the creator god, without having the slightest clue he would take on flesh and die for their sins.
Understanding the technicalities of how God wrought salvation, is not a requirement for benefiting from what God did in Christ for the OT saints like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Hezekiah or even Mary and Joseph, etc.

 

[JacksBratt]

But you didn't answer my question, what is the use of morals?

If the way I treat people and live my life as good as I can is completely useless, and it's all about just an allegiance/acceptance to a deity, then what are morals for? Why call him a righteous judge, when he doesn't judge anything?

Cis.Jd... we are to be moral people. You are correct.

If you boil it down.. we all start as sinners. Some sinners acknowledge that they are sinners.
Some of these people acknowledge that they need to change, in order to be better people.
Some of these people realize that they have no way of paying for these sins themselves. If they love God and want eternal life.. Christ is their only way out.. the only way to the father. These people accept Christ and receive eternal life.

Of those few that make these choices.. to acknowledge their sinful nature, that they need to change, that Christ is the only way and make that decision to follow Him...

Of these few.. they will all have varying levels of ability to follow a moral path.

They will all be changed creatures at heart..

Some will be brilliant and bright examples of Christ's love. Fully obvious good at heart and drastically changing their lives.
On the opposite end.. some will struggle with demons and addictions and strong personal issues that will , from our point of view, be seen with little change.

It is not for me to look at the actions of some other person and state that they are a "bad person" due to their actions..

Only God knows their heart and their struggles.

So, yes, we should be visual examples of a moral and ethical walk with Christ.. But that is not what saves us.

We are not to be stumbling blocks to those who don't believe.. but.. we are still children of Christ and, for that reason, will have eternal life.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I agree in principle. However, OT believers looked to Yahweh, the creator god, without having the slightest clue he would take on flesh and die for their sins.
Understanding the technicalities of how God wrought salvation, is not a requirement for benefiting from what God did in Christ for the OT saints like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Hezekiah or even Mary and Joseph, etc.

Not true God promised He would do that very thing in the OT. Just off the top of my head these passages come to mind. Mal 3:1, Zech 12, Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, 53, Psalm 22 etc........