Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

[sovereigngrace]

None in the historical true Church before the 19th century.

It is a modernist dogma.

He cannot even furnish one Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

 

[jgr]

I agree so what do believe biblically speaking? Jerrykelso

I believe what the Bible teaches, which is that physical DNA is not an identifier of God's Chosen People, and that only spiritual DNA identifies them.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

 

[Timtofly]

If it's not true, that is easily demonstrated.

Provide a name, date, and source quote of any recognized apologist of the pre-19th century historical true Church who espoused pretrib.

There is no beast called the "historical true church". They would have been silenced and their works destroyed by the beast of the harlot church. Only the Holy Spirit can point out to a believer the truth of God's Word.

 

[sovereigngrace]

One has to teach, scramble the verses, and declare 1000 does not mean 1000. That is a taught re-reading of Revelation in some man made theology. Such teaching does not come from just reading God's Word. Theology is not Holy Spirit inspired. Only the written Word of God is inspired by the Holy Spirit. And if your chronology claims the Holy Spirit's chronology is wrong, it does not add up. Claiming you know the right order and the Holy Spirit failed, is a judgmental view on God’s Word.

Not so! You must invent an age in between this age and the age to come that is known to the sacred text in order to accommodate your understanding of Rev 20. If your interpretation is right, where is your support elsewhere in Scripture? Also, you must ignore the constant climactic teaching of Scripture.

 

[jgr]

There is no beast called the "historical true church". They would have been silenced and their works destroyed by the beast of the harlot church. Only the Holy Spirit can point out to a believer the truth of God's Word.

Have you ever heard of the Reformation?

Were the Reformers silenced and destroyed?

If they were, you wouldn't be on this forum today.

 

[jerry kelso]

I believe what the Bible teaches, which is that physical DNA is not an identifier of God's Chosen People, and that only spiritual DNA identifies them.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

And what do you think We spiritual only people are going to do on earth or Heaven Forever. Please provide scripture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

One has to teach, scramble the verses, and declare 1000 does not mean 1000. That is a taught re-reading of Revelation in some man made theology. Such teaching does not come from just reading God's Word. Theology is not Holy Spirit inspired. Only the written Word of God is inspired by the Holy Spirit. And if your chronology claims the Holy Spirit's chronology is wrong, it does not add up. Claiming you know the right order and the Holy Spirit failed, is a judgmental view on God’s Word.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And what do you think We spiritual only people are going to do on earth or Heaven Forever. Please provide scripture.

Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

 

[jgr]

And what do you think We spiritual only people are going to do on earth or Heaven Forever. Please provide scripture.

Revelation 7
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

[Timtofly]

He cannot even furnish one Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

Just because someone is wrong, does not make your view right. Both of you are not 100% correct. And there is a rapture, unless you think Paul is a heretic with a heretical teaching of meeting Christ at the Second Coming, when Christ comes in the 6th seal. That is the Second Coming. The Lamb is here to collect the harvest. The church is harvested. Then the sheep are harvested. And then the wheat is harvested. Not all at the same time, because there is a 5 month period mentioned in the harvest of the sheep, the 5th trumpet, Revelation 9:10. Time passes, and each set of judgments happen in order. There are even 7 Thunders that have to happen between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. We may not even know what they accomplish, until it actually happens. Jumping to conclusions and creating one's own private theology like amil, does not work.

Even if it feels like it may just work out for your own private happiness. Being raptured is not a choice. It is what Paul claims happens. The first appearance is the unknown surprise. Saying it happens right after Armageddon, as in post, all will know when that is about to happen. It is the battle of Armageddon. People are not going to camp out for years, while they grow beards and their equipment gets rusty. It happens in a day, and last for an hour. And it will not be a surprise "visit". It is a quick and painful death.

You have no explanation at all why Satan even gets 3.5 years. The Second Coming already happened. Why does Satan get to interrupt or even get 3.5 years? Jesus does not hang out and sit around the campfire having drinks and swapping fire side tales. Jesus and the church have no part in this 3.5 year period, period. That is why Christ returns at Armageddon. Your theology makes it look like Christ and Satan are both on earth running a political campaign to see who gets the most votes (followers). What part of Satan, being in full control, is being misunderstood?

 

[Timtofly]

Have you ever heard of the Reformation?

Were the Reformers silenced and destroyed?

If they were, you wouldn't be on this forum today.

Yes, many reformers were burned at the stake. If they had not been, we would not be having this conversation. We would still be under the control of an apostate church.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so! You must invent an age in between this age and the age to come that is known to the sacred text in order to accommodate your understanding of Rev 20. If your interpretation is right, where is your support elsewhere in Scripture? Also, you must ignore the constant climactic teaching of Scripture.

I do not have to invent anything. Just start reading at Revelation 1, and don't skip around to fit amil teaching. The story unfolds as read verse after verse in order. In fact copy and paste it and remove all chapters and verses. Read it without changing the order around, and without chapters and verses exactly like John wrote it.

 

[jgr]

Yes, many reformers were burned at the stake. If they had not been, we would not be having this conversation. We would still be under the control of an apostate church.

True. So they are an example of the historical true Church of that era.

Others preceded them in the previous centuries. Over those centuries, God unfailingly preserved a remnant of true believers, the historical true Church.

None of them espoused a pretrib rapture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Just because someone is wrong, does not make your view right. Both of you are not 100% correct. And there is a rapture, unless you think Paul is a heretic with a heretical teaching of meeting Christ at the Second Coming, when Christ comes in the 6th seal. That is the Second Coming. The Lamb is here to collect the harvest. The church is harvested. Then the sheep are harvested. And then the wheat is harvested. Not all at the same time, because there is a 5 month period mentioned in the harvest of the sheep, the 5th trumpet, Revelation 9:10. Time passes, and each set of judgments happen in order. There are even 7 Thunders that have to happen between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. We may not even know what they accomplish, until it actually happens. Jumping to conclusions and creating one's own private theology like amil, does not work.

Even if it feels like it may just work out for your own private happiness. Being raptured is not a choice. It is what Paul claims happens. The first appearance is the unknown surprise. Saying it happens right after Armageddon, as in post, all will know when that is about to happen. It is the battle of Armageddon. People are not going to camp out for years, while they grow beards and their equipment gets rusty. It happens in a day, and last for an hour. And it will not be a surprise "visit". It is a quick and painful death.

You have no explanation at all why Satan even gets 3.5 years. The Second Coming already happened. Why does Satan get to interrupt or even get 3.5 years? Jesus does not hang out and sit around the campfire having drinks and swapping fire side tales. Jesus and the church have no part in this 3.5 year period, period. That is why Christ returns at Armageddon. Your theology makes it look like Christ and Satan are both on earth running a political campaign to see who gets the most votes (followers). What part of Satan, being in full control, is being misunderstood?

You create problems where they do not exist. If Satan is said to be given a short season at the end then that is it! Just accept it. He will be destroyed when Jesus appears.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I do not have to invent anything. Just start reading at Revelation 1, and don't skip around to fit amil teaching. The story unfolds as read verse after verse in order. In fact copy and paste it and remove all chapters and verses. Read it without changing the order around, and without chapters and verses exactly like John wrote it.

Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I do not have to invent anything. Just start reading at Revelation 1, and don't skip around to fit amil teaching. The story unfolds as read verse after verse in order. In fact copy and paste it and remove all chapters and verses. Read it without changing the order around, and without chapters and verses exactly like John wrote it.

Premils are faced with an unsurmountable obstacle: Scripture only recognizes time up until Christ’s coming, and then eternity after this. There is no space or opportunity for the semi-glorious/semi-corrupt bipolar age that they anticipate. The age to come has eternity written all over it. It is not temporal. It is not sinful. It does not involve earthly sensual pleasures.

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognizes two ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of the here-and-now with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity.

 

[Timtofly]

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"

I agree that the church is over. It is taken out first. Why is this hard to understand? The opening of the 5th and 6th seal is the end of the church. It lasted 1990 years.

(Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

It is your defined end. It is the end of the church. They are in the temple of God in Revelation 7. It is not the end of the harvest. The 144k are sealed to perform the harvest of the sheep. The church did not reap the sheep. The church was the golden harvest of the fulness of the Gentiles. The first advent opened the church to the whole world. The Gospel has spread to all corners multiple times in the last 1990 years. However, God declares a Lord's Day. God is not finished with the earth. You may be, but God is not.

I agree it is the end of the church. It is also the end of Adam's punishment of sin and the knowledge of evil. No more sin nature. No more will evil be acknowledged. Rebellion will be dealt with on a national basis. Either a nation obeys as one, or they are punished as one. It is not a world wide one size fits all punishment. The OT says, this is the case in the future physical covenant. How can there be disobedience in the next reality? Are you saying God allows "sin" or "disobedience" reign from the get go?

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

You did not create the heavens and earth. You cannot declare the end from the beginning. Genesis 2 points out the Day of the Lord. Revelation 20 points out the Day of the Lord. Do we really have to be ignorant on what a Day of the Lord is? God does not always work on a 24 hour basis, nor a 1000 year basis. It takes wisdom to know the difference.

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

None of the OT prophecies point out perfection though. Being incorruptible, yes. Being perfection, no. The physical covenant demands a physical reign, but not a perfect reign. God already showed us that having sons of God, the glorified church does not work out, in Genesis 6. Even the sons of God, let the sinful nature of fallen Adam's descendants turn their souls and spirits against God. Perfection is not immune to the sin nature. The last Day of the Lord has neither the sons of God nor the sin nature. All humanity is equal in just having incorruptible bodies. No favoritism of ethnicity, no special church, just the physical covenant.

I doubt you reject that Moses and The tribes of Jacob had a physical covenant. You teach it was over, when the spiritual came. That is wrong. The spiritual covenant has been in place from Genesis 3. The physical covenant came 2600 years later. The physical covenant lasted 1400 years, then was placed on hold. It was never completed. The spiritual covenant after 5990 years is about to expire. Yet the physical covenant does not have a climactic end now. The day after Armageddon, the first resurrection takes place. There is a dramatic revival of the physical covenant, because all in Adam had to die first. The climactic end of the spiritual covenant happens now. The climactic end of the physical covenant happens in 1000 years. Conflating the two covenants is causing an error in amil teaching. Amil claims God does not get to finish His promised physical covenant as promised to the OT prophets. I do not see every thing in the OT as having been fulfilled in the 300 years prior to the birth of Jesus. Nor does the physical covenant work out during the spiritual church period.

Nations have not been under the iron rod of Christ for the last 1990 years. Nor have dead people reigned over the earth. It has been the ministry of a living physical church body spreading the Gospel to one soul at a time. Being in charge of a physical kingdom, government, nor one world power was never God's intent. That is the temptation Satan offered to Jesus. Jesus turned it down. The 200+ year old church did not turn the temptation down. The harlot church embraced the world's kingdoms like spiritual candy and fell into apostasy.

 

[Timtofly]

True. So they are an example of the historical true Church of that era.

Others preceded them in the previous centuries. Over those centuries, God unfailingly preserved a remnant of true believers, the historical true Church.

None of them espoused a pretrib rapture.

None of them even mentioned the physical covenant did they? How can you just go by the testimony of a harlot who quickly embraced ruling the kingdoms of the earth?

The church should never have looked for anything but a spiritual relationship with God. It did not matter what sin nature controlled governments did. The church was not to involve herself with the government.

 

[Timtofly]

You create problems where they do not exist. If Satan is said to be given a short season at the end then that is it! Just accept it. He will be destroyed when Jesus appears.

The harlot church created problems that should not exist. Do not blame me.

The harlot church created a physical kingdom, and left the spiritual one for Satan's deception.

 

[Timtofly]

Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine.

The church should never establish doctrine or theology. The truth is in the unchanging Word of God. Truth is not in human interpretation. The church was supposed to make disciples. The church was not supposed to rule the nations.

Pre-Mill are not preoccupied with any thing other than doing the great commission. God says in Revelation 20, there is going to be another 1000 years. A-mil are preoccupied in trying to re-write and change the Scriptures to fit their private interpretation and theology.