Jumpy Cops Shoot/Kill Another Non-Threatening Citizen After False Alarm

[JohnDB]

I take it you are an officer. Thanks for your service and standing in the gap! Most law abiding citizens love the cops. Don't let the people on these forums discourage you. You are needed!

I'm not an officer...I just have several friends who are. I've been to their house and they to mine...we take picnics together and go to church together.

 

[trunks2k]

Common sense tells you you don't come to the door armed when the police are knocking, if you do you will get guns drawn on you.

Herein lies the problem. You make two assumptions - 1. That the person answering the door was actually aware it was the cops and it looks like once he realized they were cops, he tried to be non-threatening. 2. That a person has any sort of common sense.

Common sense would tell you, like I said above, that if you think you might need a gun if you open the door... DON'T OPEN THE DOOR. But people don't think and act how they "should". And police expect a people who consist of untrained, often fairly stupid, individuals to act how they "should" and not make any mistakes.

 

[Nithavela]

Herein lies the problem. You make two assumptions - 1. That the person answering the door was actually aware it was the cops and it looks like once he realized they were cops, he tried to be non-threatening. 2. That a person has any sort of common sense.

Common sense would tell you, like I said above, that if you think you might need a gun if you open the door... DON'T OPEN THE DOOR. But people don't think and act how they "should". And police expect a people who consist of untrained, often fairly stupid, individuals to act how they "should" and not make any mistakes.

People always appeal to common sense these days.

 

[JohnDB]

From the article:

For years, advocates have decried the high rate of police shootings in Phoenix and the state.

An Arizona Republic analysis of Phoenix police shootings from 2011 to 2018 found the Police Department outpaced similar-sized and larger cities.

 

[trunks2k]

People always appeal to common sense these days.

The thing about common sense is that it is often neither common nor sense.

 

[Kenny'sID]

They only fired after seeing a gun the guy had in his hand. Common sense tells you you don't come to the door armed when the police are knocking, if you do you will get guns drawn on you.

Oh, because police aren't dangerous? Could have been anyone at that door claiming to be police, and that is assuming he even heard the cops claim.

Common sense also says bring a taser gun, as well as don't shoot someone who is clearly kneeling down in submission.

 

[Kenny'sID]

And that poor woman, how terrible for her.

 

[iluvatar5150]

where do you see him kneel?

This is the best screenshot I can manage from my ipad. He clearly tries to take a submissive posture by extending his left hand and going to the ground.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

police expect a people who consist of untrained, often fairly stupid, individuals to act how they "should" and not make any mistakes.

They also expect them to make mistakes - which will get them killed before their mistakes become threatening to the police.

 

[Nithavela]

The thing about common sense is that it is often neither common nor sense.

While that makes for a good soundbyte, it doesn't really say a lot.

The trick behind common sense is that when you say something is common sense, you appeal both to authority (as a higher form of knowledge and agreement that is common to everyone) and to population (by implying that your view is held by everyone who has common sense). Anyone who doesn't hold your view is assumed to be someone who lacks common sense, or in other words, who isn't worth listening to.

Of course, it's not that easy. For one, different parts of the population subscribe to different ideas and thus have different common senses. While not everyone has their own common sense, each subculture does. So while that appeal to common sense is self-evident for members of the sub-culture, it is also...

You know what, nevermind. From now on, common sense is no longer a valid argument on CF. Make specific arguments for your case or don't, but don't appeal to something that isn't defined.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

They only fired after seeing a gun the guy had in his hand. Common sense tells you you don't come to the door armed when the police are knocking, if you do you will get guns drawn on you.

Common sense says that I should be able to do whatever I want in my own home without worrying about being murdered by law enforcement. I seem to remember something in the Constitution of The United Sates about that. But hey, your Gestapo/KGB police State sounds wonderful.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I seem to remember something in the Constitution of The United Sates about that.

You remember wrong.

 

[Ana the Ist]

While that makes for a good soundbyte, it doesn't really say a lot.

The trick behind common sense is that when you say something is common sense, you appeal both to authority (as a higher form of knowledge and agreement that is common to everyone) and to population (by implying that your view is held by everyone who has common sense). Anyone who doesn't hold your view is assumed to be someone who lacks common sense, or in other words, who isn't worth listening to.

Of course, it's not that easy. For one, different parts of the population subscribe to different ideas and thus have different common senses. While not everyone has their own common sense, each subculture does. So while that appeal to common sense is self-evident for members of the sub-culture, it is also...

You know what, nevermind. From now on, common sense is no longer a valid argument on CF. Make specific arguments for your case or don't, but don't appeal to something that isn't defined.

People are entitled to self defense. Police are entitled to self defense. Both are allowed guns.

Those three things mean there's always going to be mistakes.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

You remember wrong.

Oh yeah, I forgot about article murder.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

People are entitled to self defense. Police are entitled to self defense. Both are allowed guns.

Those three things mean there's always going to be mistakes.

Well, with your hero’s killing us law abiding citizens in our homes, we might start shooting first when we see your death squads coming to enforce noise complaints.

After all mistakes can be made...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Oh yeah, I forgot about article murder.

You forgot about literally all kinds of stuff you aren't allowed to do at home.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, with your hero’s

Heroes?

killing us law abiding citizens in our homes,

Uh huh.

we might start shooting first when we see your death squads coming to enforce noise complaints.

After all mistakes can be made...

Oooohh....internet tough guy. Scary.

Lemme know how that works out.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Oooohh....internet tough guy. Scary.

Lemme know how that works out.

There are a few here.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

So, it's great that US citizens can own and carry guns and defend your home, except when the police come to your home, because the second amendment is there to protect us from oppressive government, except when it's the actual government and - oh boy, the mental gymnastics that must be needed to be a pro-gun / pro-police / pro-2A person right now.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So, it's great that US citizens can own and carry guns and defend your home, except when the police come to your home, because the second amendment is there to protect us from oppressive government, except when it's the actual government and - oh boy, the mental gymnastics that must be needed to be a pro-gun / pro-police / pro-2A person right now.

Ready to see it in action?

If a crime was committed, I expect the officers to be charged.

This isn't perfect of course, but I expect they'll get it right more often than not. If that's not the case, then we have a problem to reconcile.

This isn't a difficult position to hold at all.