Undecided on the Rapture Timing

[yeshuasavedme]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

It is all given in the living oracles given to the namesake nation to rehearse until all is fulfilled.
Everything concerning the temple, the Holy of Holies, the furnishings, the priesthood, the clothing, the feast days, and so on, are all "show and tell" rehearsals of the Person and work of the LORD Yeshua, the Messiah.
So study the Oracles to learn about His one plan for the Ransom back of the lost seed of Adam and of the earth which Adam sold into sin and corruption.
Even the rapture is laid out in the Living Oracles: who goes, when [not a given calendar date, but the season], why, and what happens after, in heaven and on earth.
The last trump is the last blast of two sounded one after another to call the entire congregation to come to the tabernacle doors to hear the instructions of YHWH.
Look it up.
Look at Isaiah 26: 19-21 to see what YHWH says to His "gathered together to Him" congregation after they are called by that last trump of the two sounding for the gathering together.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Well, here my take.
There is no take me away in my beautiful balloon.
Christ is not coming for a fly by. He's coming to receive his kingdom. The kingdom of this world becomes the kingdom of Christ and he will reign right here on earth.

Revelation 11:15 NIV: The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

Is there any way the post-trib view can work with the nation of Israel still being the focus? Both the nation of Israel and the church being around in the tribulation? I think it's clear by scripture God isn't finished with Israel.

Another thing that confuses me is how after chapter 3 in Revelation it switches to a Jewish language style I heard and it addresses tribulation saints rather than the church.

Whether we are still here or not wouldn't hurt my faith, I would still be resting and trusting Christ throughout anything.

 

[Busryde]

Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Post-trib? The correct answer is....(drumroll please).....YES!

My point is noone knows for sure. Look at the scripture and form your own opinion, then drop it! Live for Christ today and spread His gospel.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Perhaps every generation seeing those signs is a hint from God maybe we should get our acts together.

Let me know if they actually saw the true signs of Christ's coming anytime in Church age in 117AD, 1130AD, 1530AD, 1994AD, then you may have a point. NOT!

 

[Choose Wisely]

Is there any way the post-trib view can work with the nation of Israel still being the focus? Both the nation of Israel and the church being around in the tribulation? I think it's clear by scripture God isn't finished with Israel.

Another thing that confuses me is how after chapter 3 in Revelation it switches to a Jewish language style I heard and it addresses tribulation saints rather than the church.

Whether we are still here or not wouldn't hurt my faith, I would still be resting and trusting Christ throughout anything.

Here are the 24 elders and the Church in heaven in Rev 5......which is why the Church is not referred to again in Revelation.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The 1st six seals are the 70th week of Daniel.........as we can see God turn His attention to Israel. That's why there are 144,000 1st fruits from the 12 tribes.

 

[Blade]

So.. Christ told them He was going back to make them a home and would come back and get them take them receive them unto Him self so where He is we will be. He even said where I go you know. So we know Christ is in heaven at the right hand of the Father. Now.. He said He would come back get us so WHERE He is we will be. He can not lie

So you read what Paul said in his 1st letter. Now.. when Paul wrote that what else was written? Sure its SO easy to read Thes and then JUMP to Rev or back and forth but.. when it was first spoken.. there was no NT.

The fact that Paul said "we which remain". No one can prove pre trib. No one can prove post trib. There is no verse. If there was anything you would not be asking. So verses are posted and then things are added to what is not written as in "what Jesus was really saying, what that verse really means". "that trump really means" on and on. Again.. there was no NT written at the time.

I like what a famous man of God said (gone home now) "I am post trib BUT...if Jesus comes pre.. I am ready now". He studied the word longer then most here. Was wise enough to know there is no pre mid post verses. Now..if you doubt.. and He comes pre.. will you go or will it be for you like a thief in the night?

Myself I am not going with what some MAN says on this earth. They have just as much INFO that I do. So I like what Paul said.. WE WHICH REMAIN. He put himself in it. So.. since there is no verse that GOD promised me tomorrow.. to prepare is wise but.. this is the moment He gave me.. this is the moment I watch and am ready. I am always ready looking up NOW! I will never miss Him. I do not doubt what so ever. It will always be NOW when He comes.

And I will never see my Fathers wrath. Again I am not going to go with some mans definition. So much of this is foolish doctrines of man. Its not written. He said He will come get you.. so.. why not be ready NOW..since thats all you have. Put your faith in the moment He gave you.. your FREE Choice.. remember.. you alone made this choice. It has price

 

[Jamdoc]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Pre wrath is based on taking most of the timing of Revelation to be written in chronological order, with 1 reset in time in chapter 12, and equating events in Revelation 6:12-13 with Matthew 24:29-31, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and seeing them as describing the same event, which Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 describe the gathering of the elect, and matthew 24 and Revelations 6 describe the darkening of the sun and moon.

It fits Matthew 24:29 in that it states "Immediately after the tribulation", where you've had the first 5 seals, the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, 1/4 of the world's population being killed, and a massive number of martyrs, so that is after the tribulations, which are persecutions by man, but it is not until the 7th seal that the trumpets and vials come, the wrath of God. That is where the pre wrath comes from. We'll go through Tribulations caused by other men, but just before God starts pouring His wrath on the Earth, He gathers His elect.
Pre trib requires a lot of mental gymnastics rather than just reading Revelation as it is written, and Post Trib or amillennialism or post millennialism requires interpreting Revelation to not mean what it says, but to try and apply it as events that had already happened at the time the book was written, making it not a prophetic book but a historical book.
Pre millennialism requires a literal interpretation.

 

[ZNP]

Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Post-trib? The correct answer is....(drumroll please).....YES!

My point is noone knows for sure. Look at the scripture and form your own opinion, then drop it! Live for Christ today and spread His gospel.

So then you are Pan-trib

 

[ZNP]

Let me know if they actually saw the true signs of Christ's coming anytime in Church age in 117AD, 1130AD, 1530AD, 1994AD, then you may have a point. NOT!

That is a very smug response. According to Paul the yearly festivals of the OT were prophetic. This age began with the Lord being sacrificed for us as our Passover and it ends with the Festival of tabernacles where we all live in tents. So then the very nature of the prophecy is that it is repetitive, happening over and over again, just like Fractals.

For example, this is not the first pandemic. There have been several, but the three most often cited were in the 1300s, Genghis Khan tossing infected dead bodies over the walls of cities. This plague is said to have a big impact on the golden age of the 1500s, all but ending serfdom. Also it exposed the Catholic church in many cases as a fraud opening the door for the protestant movement by weakening and questioning the Pope's authority. So it was in line with "bind the strong man and plunder His house". The Great plague of London in the 1600s, that plague greatly weakened the feudal system and opened the door for a parliamentary system. So it was in line with "bind the strong man and plunder His house". Then in the 1900s we had the Spanish flu also closely associated with a great war and really helped develop the middle class. So it was in line with "bind the strong man and plunder his house". Finally, this plague is causing a worldwide shut down / slow down of trade and business. That is hitting the rich.

Yes, the Bible says at the end of this age there will be tribulation that has never been and never will be again. But it is reasonable to say that the Black Plague was a precursor, a warning, a shot across the bow, likewise with the great plague and the Spanish flu.

 

[JacksBratt]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

I understand that you want to make sure that your position is correct..
We all do..

The best I can say is "be ready and expect it tomorrow.. Plan for it to happen long after you die"

 

[JacksBratt]

Understanding the rapture timing is really very simple:

Yes, that's why there is constant debate as to when it will take place.

 

[Gup20]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

I think one of the things that I only recently realized is that there have already been multiple "raptures" in the Bible (i.e. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, Jesus). I think one of the reasons "the rapture" seems to be indicated several places and at conflicting times is because there is probably multiple end-times raptures.

I recently watched this video and realized that the Bible doesn't necessarily say anywhere there would only be one rapture. Perhaps this is why the Bible seems to have indicated it is at different points throughout the end times.

 

[Sorn]

Pre-trib basically says that Christ comes (or intervenes) once to retrieve His bride (ie the church) and then at the end of the 7 year tribulation, whenever that is, He comes (or intervenes) a 2nd time, this time to Earth physically.
Technically He can probably rapture people to Heaven without leaving Heaven, hence, 'caught in the air'.

(As per video above there may even be more than 2 interventions.)

 

[ZNP]

I think one of the things that I only recently realized is that there have already been multiple "raptures" in the Bible (i.e. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, Jesus). I think one of the reasons "the rapture" seems to be indicated several places and at conflicting times is because there is probably multiple end-times raptures.

I recently watched this video and realized that the Bible doesn't necessarily say anywhere there would only be one rapture. Perhaps this is why the Bible seems to have indicated it is at different points throughout the end times.

great timeline, very clear depiction.

 

[JulieB67]

The Day of the Lord is the whole Millennium

Yes, I know that but that's also when Christ returns.

We do not know if Peter was in agreement with Paul, and if Paul was in agreement with John

I think all three are in agreement.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because Him. Even so, A-men

John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day. And was told to write about the past, present and future.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, I know that but that's also when Christ returns.



I think all three are in agreement.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because Him. Even so, A-men

John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day. And was told to write about the past, present and future.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

You are correct.

Because Paul, and Peter, and John, all wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they must agree.

The Holy Spirit stands outside of time, and space.

.

 

[Sorn]

great timeline, very clear depiction.

It should be noted that if a pre-trib rapture happens, that it will not necessarily mark the start of the 7 year tribulation, in fact a fair bit of time may pass (a decade or 2) between a pre-trib rapture and the start of the 7 year trib.

 

[JacksBratt]

It should be noted that if a pre-trib rapture happens, that it will not necessarily mark the start of the 7 year tribulation, in fact a fair bit of time may pass (a decade or 2) between a pre-trib rapture and the start of the 7 year trib.

Maybe "not necessarily" However, how long do you think this sinful wicked world would last without the church and the Holy Spirit?

 

[ZNP]

Maybe "not necessarily" However, how long do you think this sinful wicked world would last without the church and the Holy Spirit?

Also what happens when the whole world realizes they have been raptured. I don't think the whole "nothing to see here" will be very effective.