Running2win

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I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

33 years saved and studying prophecy. Started as Pre-trib, went to Post-trib, and now believe the Pre-wrath viewpoint is correct and ties all the Scriptures together the best.

The best way to know the truth in a nut shell, is just read and study the Olivet Discourse- Mat 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. There is info in Luke 17:22-37 too. This is really all you need to know and is taught by Jesus Himself.

Many say they are trusting in Christ for their salvation, but unfortunately few believe the outline He gives us. That is why the confusion. They lack the faith to say with confidence that what He says is true.

I am not afraid to and I stake my life on it going down just like He says it will. No hidden agenda, no secret interpretations, just believing simply it will happen as He says. So simple a child could understand the basics- just like salvation. So what are the basics?

BIBLE PROPHECY 101 BY JESUS​

Any outline or time frame of when Jesus comes back must line up with what He gives us in His Olivet Discourse. If it don't, we do not have the truth. Just that simple. He has told us everything beforehand- in a nutshell, everything that we need to know about His second coming. Short and sweet. :)

All you have to do is sit down write out the key events He says that must happen before He returns. If He comes before these things happen, He is lumping Himself in with the false Christ that will come before He shows up, thus making Himself a false prophet. Right? Well we know this is impossible, so it must take place exactly as He says it will, straight out of His own mouth.

Paul in 1st Th. 4-5, 2nd 1-2, 1st Cor 15, was basing his teachings on the Olivet Discourse outline of Jesus. So was John. Just more info, but following the same outline and time frame. So start with the outline of Jesus, go to Paul, and then when you understand how they fit together, go to Revelation.

Before you go to Revelation, go to Daniel, because Jesus makes a point that the AD- spoken of by the prophet Daniel, will be seen. Also, in order to understand the beasts- animals of Revelation, you got to understand what Daniel is talking about. Daniel and Revelation go hand and hand.

These are the basics, and you can keep it simple and just follow the outline Jesus gives and reading what Paul says, without trying to blend all the passages of Revelation and Daniel. This is perfectly fine if you want to keep it simple and not confuse things. Just beware of any teacher or person that don't teach it like Jesus does.:idea: :oldthumbsup::wave:



3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
 
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JacksBratt

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Also what happens when the whole world realizes they have been raptured. I don't think the whole "nothing to see here" will be very effective.

I agree...

Enter "Expert in Alien Intelligence" Person A... Stating.. "Don't worry.. they have been removed to be educated in truth as they were not of the proper mindset. After training, they will be returned and we can, as a whole world move to the nest level of existence".....
 
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ZNP

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I agree...

Enter "Expert in Alien Intelligence" Person A... Stating.. "Don't worry.. they have been removed to be educated in truth as they were not of the proper mindset. After training, they will be returned and we can, as a whole world move to the nest level of existence".....
That would work if you didn't know them. But if you worked with them, if you were related to them, if they had spoken to you concerning the gospel, you would know the truth. If they posted online and on Facebook and you could read what they had said it would be pretty easy to know the official line was BS
 
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JacksBratt

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That would work if you didn't know them. But if you worked with them, if you were related to them, if they had spoken to you concerning the gospel, you would know the truth. If they posted online and on Facebook and you could read what they had said it would be pretty easy to know the official line was BS
For sure.. But, for the masses... Those who haven't even seen the inside of a church or, like in many of the "living water" videos... don't even know how Jesus paid for our sins...
Those people... Hook, line, sinker.
 
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nolidad

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I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Hi JBCA, Instead of giving you the arguments as to why the bible teaches a pretribulational rapture, I am going to share a link with an excellent free study that is downloadable for you to look at.

The bible never declares when the rapture will take place specifically,( as in the rapture will occur before the 70th week of Daniel commences etc.) , but this study will show how the language of Scripture leaves no other alternative than a pre- trib rapture!

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf
 
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Jamdoc

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I think one of the things that I only recently realized is that there have already been multiple "raptures" in the Bible (i.e. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, Jesus). I think one of the reasons "the rapture" seems to be indicated several places and at conflicting times is because there is probably multiple end-times raptures.

I recently watched this video and realized that the Bible doesn't necessarily say anywhere there would only be one rapture. Perhaps this is why the Bible seems to have indicated it is at different points throughout the end times.


Enoch and Elijah were raptured up to heaven, correct, that's why I believe they will be the two witnesses in Jerusalem. Because they have not yet died their appointed death.
However Moses did die. Deuteronomy 34:5.
Jesus died and was resurrected.
and I think it's possible that other people who were resurrected by Jesus such as Lazarus may have gone bodily up to heaven rather than die a second time, although that is not covered in scripture. I say this is possible because Hebrews 9:27 and Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 20:6. If you were resurrected by Jesus you've already taken part in the first resurrection and are not subject to the second death. So Lazarus I believe was resurrected and taken to heaven bodily, for the glory of God and would not suffer a second death.
 
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Jamdoc

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Pre-trib basically says that Christ comes (or intervenes) once to retrieve His bride (ie the church) and then at the end of the 7 year tribulation, whenever that is, He comes (or intervenes) a 2nd time, this time to Earth physically.
Technically He can probably rapture people to Heaven without leaving Heaven, hence, 'caught in the air'.

(As per video above there may even be more than 2 interventions.)
I'm going to disagree because the timing Jesus gave was after the tribulation in Matthew 24, the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 doesn't line up with the description in Matthew 24, HOWEVER, the description in Revelation 6:12-13 DOES match the description in Matthew 24:29-31. Once you see it, you'll understand, God promised us tribulation in this world, He will not spare us from other people hating us for His name's sake. He will however, spare us from His wrath, the trumpets and vials.

So you can see Tribulation -> Rapture -> Wrath of God -> Jesus comes to earth on a white horse with His saints -> Armageddon -> Millennial Kingdom -> Satan's little season and last act of Rebellion -> End of the World and Final Judgement -> Eternity
That is taking Revelation as being written mostly in order. Chapter 12 is an obvious reset since it goes back to the birth of Christ, and chapter 14 goes over the same 144000 that chapter 7 does, and the vials seem to correspond with the trumpets (though they are different, they often complement each other, so I believe they happen simultaneously). It is also taking Revelation fairly literally except obvious symbolism like the multi headed beast.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes, I know that but that's also when Christ returns.
I think all three are in agreement.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because Him. Even so, A-men

John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day. And was told to write about the past, present and future.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Peter put the whole event in one verse. The beginning as the thief in the night, the very end after the GWT, all will be dissolved. One cannot make Peter say anything but the beginning and end.

Paul only gives the beginning, and nothing else. Thus the church leaves at the beginning.

John is the only one who spreads it all out, but if one says the trumpets of John are the same trumpets of Paul, they are now in contradiction. I agree they agree. I do not accept some, who now, make them disagree to prove a point.
 
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Jamdoc

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So much for the speciality of being first resurrected into the Kingdom as King.

Well, do you think he died a second time? Cause it's either what you said, or Hebrews 9:27 needs an asterisk.
Note that he would have been raptured after Jesus ascended to Heaven. So there is no conflict on that part.
Lazarus died, Jesus resurrected him, Jesus died and was resurrected, then Jesus ascended into the Kingdom as King.. then Lazarus would have been raptured sometime later. Scripture is not clear on what happened to Lazarus after his resurrection.
 
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JacksBratt

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Enoch and Elijah were raptured up to heaven, correct, that's why I believe they will be the two witnesses in Jerusalem. Because they have not yet died their appointed death.
However Moses did die. Deuteronomy 34:5.
Jesus died and was resurrected.
and I think it's possible that other people who were resurrected by Jesus such as Lazarus may have gone bodily up to heaven rather than die a second time, although that is not covered in scripture. I say this is possible because Hebrews 9:27 and Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 20:6. If you were resurrected by Jesus you've already taken part in the first resurrection and are not subject to the second death. So Lazarus I believe was resurrected and taken to heaven bodily, for the glory of God and would not suffer a second death.
I understand you logic. Even if the bible doesn't talk about Lazarus's second death.. Many people die and come back to life. They call them "near death experiences" but many are clinically dead.

Maybe not as long as Lazarus was.. but long enough to remember what they saw and did in heaven.

Only one person can do that.. God... And these people will die again. IMO of course.

Moses was raptured and returned... then died later. I never thought of that until watching that well put together video.. Good stuff.
 
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Bobber

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Enoch and Elijah were raptured up to heaven, correct, that's why I believe they will be the two witnesses in Jerusalem. Because they have not yet died their appointed death.
However Moses did die. Deuteronomy 34:5.
Jesus died and was resurrected.
and I think it's possible that other people who were resurrected by Jesus such as Lazarus may have gone bodily up to heaven rather than die a second time, although that is not covered in scripture. I say this is possible because Hebrews 9:27 and Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 20:6. If you were resurrected by Jesus you've already taken part in the first resurrection and are not subject to the second death. So Lazarus I believe was resurrected and taken to heaven bodily, for the glory of God and would not suffer a second death.
I'm not sure I'm getting your reasoning. That would mean all other people who died and God caused to come back to life that would mean they ALL would have been taken to heaven bodily? So why can't it just be a case of a physical reconstitution and healing and not the full resurrected body? I also had a friend who died.....was dead for quite a few minutes.....went to heaven for a while and talked to God..... and came back to earth and lived. Well he died many years later. So why wasn't he sent bodily to heaven?
 
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Choose Wisely

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Also what happens when the whole world realizes they have been raptured. I don't think the whole "nothing to see here" will be very effective.
I would say most in the world will be told that the aliens have taken them away. You don't think that they have been pumping the alien abduction lie all these years for nothing do you.
 
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ZNP

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I would say most in the world will be told that the aliens have taken them away. You don't think that they have been pumping the alien abduction lie all these years for nothing do you.
Surely there is some verse that refers to this?
 
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ZNP

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I don't think this is a scriptural concept.. It's a secular concept applied as an excuse for a biblical event.
OK, so the governments of the world all create this alien invasion and body snatching narrative to avoid saying it was the rapture, even though everyone in the world whether or not they are Christian has heard of the rapture. And all the news media, bloggers, and people who post to forums all get in line because everyone basically just trusts whatever the government tells them. And somehow body snatching aliens is a story that will calm the masses? That is your theory?
 
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JacksBratt

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OK, so the governments of the world all create this alien invasion and body snatching narrative to avoid saying it was the rapture, even though everyone in the world whether or not they are Christian has heard of the rapture. And all the news media, bloggers, and people who post to forums all get in line because everyone basically just trusts whatever the government tells them. And somehow body snatching aliens is a story that will calm the masses? That is your theory?
1/ I think that you are over estimating how many people even know what the raptures is. Ask around among the not Christian crowd.. Especially those between 18 and 30 years old...

Some think that Mount Rushmore... is in France.

2/ While those that do know what the rapture is are shouting that it was the rapture.. the fake news media.. which we know is anti biblical and rarely states the whole truth... Will be hammering out the prepared scenario.. that it was a mass abduction.
 
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timothyu

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OK, so the governments of the world all create this alien invasion and body snatching narrative to avoid saying it was the rapture,
It would fly if the whole narrative surrounded seeding the planet in the first place. Perhaps that is why the US govt is slowly releasing positive info on alien contact recently, to prepare us.
 
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JacksBratt

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It would fly if the whole narrative surrounded seeding the planet in the first place. Perhaps that is why the US govt is slowly releasing positive info on alien contact recently, to prepare us.
Yes... the "Soft" disclosure.. admitting, slowly, that which they outright denied and called people crazy for... in the 1950's..
 
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