• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Status
Not open for further replies.

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,329.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
LoveGodsWord said: Context is king dear friend and it is context your not considering. As posted earlier the unrepentant wicked are desroyed with the second death in the lake of fire after the second coming *Revelation 21:7-8; Hebrews 10:26-31; (more scripture here). Here we are 2061 posts and 113 pages and not a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming? Does that not worry you when God's Word says that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming? It should. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.
Your response here
It does not worry me, because I believe Luke 2:10. I believe John 3:17. I believe Job 42:2. I believe 1 Timothy 4:10.
And so on.
It should worry you dear friend. Not one of the scriptures you provide here says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming while over 100+ directly show that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire after the second coming. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,329.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Back to some questions I was asking earlier....

Q1. I'm wondering why anyone that beleives in Universalism might think Satan and one third of heavens angels were cast out of heaven for their rebellion?

Q2. Why was Adam and Eve given a test of faith with regard to the forbidden tree?

Q3. Why would God allow six thousand years of sin with all of it's unimaginable suffering on His creation, and in the end save everyone, those with faith, and those without faith?

Q.4 Why then is God allowing sin to rein from the time that He created the angles until now when everyone even the unrepentant wicked will still be saved anyway?

................

Now all of the above are based on the scriptures but I do not believe fit into the teachings of Universalism. Would anyone care to address these questions? I came across these questions from a friend in another thread but I was interested in your view and how you would answer these questions from a Universalists point of view.

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word.
 
Upvote 0

Jord Simcha

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
457
529
48
Groningen
✟68,422.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Your response here

It should worry you dear friend. Not one of the scriptures you provide here says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming while over 100+ directly show that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire after the second coming. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.
Yes they do, especially in combination with each other:

Great joy to all people, purpose is to save the world, which cannot be thwarted: Saviour of all men.

I am not ignoring your verses. I already explained my position, which is a different interpretation of destruction and being devoured/consumed. Repeating destruction verses doesn't change my interpretation.
 
Upvote 0

Jord Simcha

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
457
529
48
Groningen
✟68,422.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Back to some questions I was asking earlier....

Q1. I'm wondering why anyone that beleives in Universalism might think Satan and one third of heavens angels were cast out of heaven for their rebellion?

Q2. Why was Adam and Eve given a test of faith with regard to the forbidden tree?

Q3. Why would God allow six thousand years of sin with all of it's unimaginable suffering on His creation, and in the end save everyone, those with faith, and those without faith?

Q.4 Why then is God allowing sin to rein from the time that He created the angles until now when everyone even the unrepentant wicked will still be saved anyway?
1. Disobedience.

2. I'm sure that's a question that a few people might ask Jesus Christ when given the opportunity.

3. Is that the plan, to save everyone? Yes, or no. You've read the verses. Does God succeed? Yes, or no.

4. Free will probably.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,329.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes they do, especially in combination with each other:

Great joy to all people, purpose is to save the world, which cannot be thwarted: Saviour of all men.

I am not ignoring your verses. I already explained my position, which is a different interpretation of destruction and being devoured/consumed. Repeating destruction verses doesn't change my interpretation.

No they do not. They are talking about God's plan of salvation for all mankind. Not one scripture says that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming and not one scripture you provided says all the world will accept the gospel. If that was the case their would not be over 100+ scriptures that disagree with you and show that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire after the seond coming.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,329.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
LoveGodsWord said: Back to some questions I was asking earlier....
Q1. I'm wondering why anyone that beleives in Universalism might think Satan and one third of heavens angels were cast out of heaven for their rebellion?

Q2. Why was Adam and Eve given a test of faith with regard to the forbidden tree?

Q3. Why would God allow six thousand years of sin with all of it's unimaginable suffering on His creation, and in the end save everyone, those with faith, and those without faith?

Q.4 Why then is God allowing sin to rein from the time that He created the angles until now when everyone even the unrepentant wicked will still be saved anyway?
Your response here...
1. Disobedience.

2. I'm sure that's a question that a few people might ask Jesus Christ when given the opportunity.

3. Is that the plan, to save everyone? Yes, or no. You've read the verses. Does God succeed? Yes, or no.

4. Free will probably.

Well thanks for having a try but you know my follow up questions are going to be in regards to the application of these questions to the Universalism teachings right?

So if God is a God of love and not also a God of justice and judgment and all will be saved including the unrepentant wicked, why all the sin and suffering? If God is not a God of justice and mercy why all the punishment? Do you see where this is going now? Why send Jesus to die on the cross when the unrepentant wicked will all be saved anyway? Does this make any sense to you? Neither does Universalism.
 
Upvote 0

Jord Simcha

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
457
529
48
Groningen
✟68,422.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No they do not. They are talking about God's plan of salvation for all mankind. Not one scripture says that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming and not one scripture you provided says all the world will accept the gospel. If that was the case their would not be over 100+ scriptures that disagree with you and show that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire after the seond coming.
You're half way there, the plan of salvation for all mankind.

The other scriptures refer to how God doesn't fail. He will be succesful.
 
Upvote 0

Jord Simcha

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
457
529
48
Groningen
✟68,422.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So if God is a God of love and not also a God of justice and judgment and all will be saved including the unrepentant wicked, why all the sin and suffering? If God is not a God of justice and mercy why all the punishment? Do you see where this is going now? Why send Jesus to die on the cross when the unrepentant wicked will all be saved anyway? Does this make any sense to you? Neither does Universalism.
Like I said, why questions are hard and particularly about somebody else let alone God.

I can't answer them with great authority.

What I do know is what I can read for myself. Which is that all flesh will see God's salvation.
Which is that God is love and love never fails, so if He's Saviour of the world He will save the world.

It would have been fine with me if God saved everybody without Jesus having to go to the cross but the truth is what it is. I reckon the topic of why Jesus had to die will be an eternal one.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,329.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You're half way there, the plan of salvation for all mankind. The other scriptures refer to how God doesn't fail. He will be succesful.
Well as shown earlier you have to deny a lot of scirpture to say that. You have not provided a single scirpture that says that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming and not one scripture you provided says all the world will accept the gospel. If that was the case their would not be over 100+ scriptures that disagree with you and show that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire after the seond coming.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,329.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Like I said, why questions are hard and particularly about somebody else let alone God.

I can't answer them with great authority.

What I do know is what I can read for myself. Which is that all flesh will see God's salvation.
Which is that God is love and love never fails, so if He's Saviour of the world He will save the world.

It would have been fine with me if God saved everybody without Jesus having to go to the cross but the truth is what it is. I reckon the topic of why Jesus had to die will be an eternal one.

They are all questions based on the scripture only but are in disagreement with the teachings of Universalism. Even though you did not answer them at least you had a go which is good and perhaps they will give you something to consider and pray about. Thanks for having a go. These questions are in harmony with what I believe.

Would you like to know how I see them?
 
Upvote 0

Jord Simcha

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
457
529
48
Groningen
✟68,422.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well as shown earlier you have to deny a lot of scirpture to say that. You have not provided a single scirpture that says that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming and not one scripture you provided says all the world will accept the gospel. If that was the case their would not be over 100+ scriptures that disagree with you and show that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire after the seond coming.
the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
1 Timothy 2:5-6

"In due time" is good enough for me.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God is not limited dear Fine.

Bingo!

"YOU have limited the Holy One of Israel."

"For me, he must increase and I must decrease." -Lover quote of the day.-

"The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance." -A.W. Tozer-

At the consummation of doing away with us & our faith is glorious living by the faith of the Son of God.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
What the prophets of the Most High God declare is total triumph by the Author & Finisher. It is not a partial victory by our God with tis/some coming to no more sin, but the ta panta/the all standing in complete harmony & at-one-ment with the A. & F., the whole many "made sin" to the many "made righteous."

Man's Gospel =

If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw a small portion of mankind unto me. (The rest I will torment forever)

The gospel of Jesus Christ

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all mankind to Myself.”

iu
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Justice is not people getting what they deserve.

Justice is God getting what God deserves.

God deserves people made in His image.

He will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God deserves to make this happen and He will make it happen.

All things belong to Him.

Life annihilates death.

Goodness annihilates evil.

A believer is someone who dies before he dies. A unbeliever needs to die after he dies.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Are we paying attention?

The issue is not what is written in some verse, but what is consistent with the "mind of Christ" taken as a coherent whole.

Everything must be in complete agreement, no contradictions or inconsistencies with the Holy Spirit of agape love, mercy, kindness, compassion, long suffering, etc.

We must make every effort to reconcile the inconsistencies and contradictions we accept as being from God & develop a coherent understanding of the "mind of Christ."

Do you accept all the words "written in ink" without thought or reasoning. Such blind acceptance is not studying to show yourself approved. It's just rote acceptance of primitive thinking.

God speaks in the red letters, the black letters & the white spaces between the lines.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
14,893
7,840
50
The Wild West
✟718,912.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Although John Wesley is not on record as a universalist, he was greatly influenced by the Moravians, many of whom were universalists. He quoted from Sixteen Discourses (Moravian Literature), the following statement, “By his (Christ’s) name, all can and shall obtain life and salvation.” One of Wesley’s intimate friends, Peter Bohler wrote: “All the damned souls shall yet be brought up out of hell.” (Bohler was made the Bishop of American Moravians, next in rank to Zinzendorf).

Actually, the Entire Sanctification soteriology of John Wesley was basically a Westernized explanation of the ancient doctrine of Theosis, preserved in the Orthodox churches, which Wesley studied (I expect Wesley initially came into contact with it via the Moravians, who were not merely the oldest Protestant denomination, but were also a denomination that specifically came into being because of the extreme dissatisfaction of Bohemian Christians, who had historically been Eastern Orthodox, at having Latin Rite Catholicism imposed on them; Jan Hus and his followers, who eventually became Moravian, were basically seeking a restoration of those things which Eastern Orthodoxy gave and Roman Catholicism took away, namely, communion in both species, and a vernacular liturgy). Indeed, Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague were recently glorified (canonized) as saints in the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia.

It should be stressed very strongly that neither the Moravians, nor the Methodists, nor the Eastern Orthodox, are Universalist, indeed, the recent outbreak of universalism in Eastern Orthodoxy is patently absurd when one reads various EO texts on the ascetic life, on temptation and on spiritual delusion, and also when one contemplates certain Eastern Orthodox icons such as the Ladder of Divine Ascent. So the unfortunate embrace of universalism by the likes of David Bentley Hart is utterly baffling.

The Reformer Martin Luther had hope for all. In his letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg in 1522, Luther wrote: "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." Bengel's book, Gnomon, quotes Luther's exposition of Hosea as accepting the idea that Christ appeared to souls of some who in the time of Noah had been unbelieving, that they might recognize that their sins were forgiven through His sacrifice.

It should be stressed that hope for all is not the same as universalism. I myself hope everyone repents. However, based on scripture, I also have to acknowledge, as Martin Luther and John Wesley did, that this is extremely unlikely, because there are some people who despise God and, consumed by that hate, set themselves against him eternally, so that the consuming fire of God’s infinite love is experienced by them as agonizing torture (God, being pure love, does not seek to inflict pain; rather, it is the self-originated evil nature of reprobates who, having chosen to hate God rather than embrace His transformative and salvific love, which causes them to be tortured). The words of CS Lewis, who most definitely was not a Universalist, seem apt here: “The gates of Hell are locked on the inside.”

... Since 1800 this situation has entirely changed, and no traditional doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment.

That is inaccurate. The majority of serious contemporary theologians across the different denominations, including N.T. Wright*, Pope Benedict XVI (during his career as a scholar and as Cardinal Prefect of the Holy Office, during which time he published many books before being elected Pope in 2005), Karl Barth**, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware of Diokleia, Dr. Albert Mohler, and a great many others, reject the idea of universal salvation.

Conversely, a believe that apokatasis was absolutely inevitable was held by several early church fathers, such as Origen, and to a much lesser extent, St. Gregory of Nyssa. This belief was also at one time prevalent in the Church of the East, sometimes erroneously called the Nestorian Church, being articulated in the writings of St. Isaac the Syrian (who is venerated not just by the Church of the East, but also by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, among others) and in the Book of the Bee, a summarized history of creation, the Church and eschatology, by the bishop Mar Solomon Akhlat Bassora.

Its advocates among theologians today must be fewer than ever before.... Among the less conservative, universal salvation, either as hope or as dogma, is now so widely accepted that many theologians assume it virtually without argument." --Richard J. Bauckham, lecturer in the history of Christian thought at the University of Manchester

Among the minority of ultra-liberal, neo-Gnostic “theologians” like Elaine Pagels or Karen King, perhaps, but not among the mainstream theologians whose work actually matters to Christians outaide of the tiny, fast-shrinking bubble of the dying mainline denominations.

Dr. J.I. Packer has noted that Universalism "has in this century quietly become part of the orthodoxy of many Christian thinkers and groups."

There is nothing “orthodox” about Universalism.

I know of only one “denomination”, and I use the term loosely, that officially embraces universalism, and that is the apostate Unitarian Universalist Association. The UUs are a non-Christian cult which took over many of the oldest Congregational churches in New England in the 18th century, initially adhering to a heretical (contrary to the Nicene Creed, the CF.com statement of faith) Unitarian Christology, before degenerating into transcendentalism under the influence of Ralph Waldo Emerson (who was a Unitarian minister before quitting in protest over it being too Christian for his rarefied tastes...seriously, you can’t make this stuff up) and then merging with the Universalist Church, which prior to its merger with the Unitarians had been nominally Christian, but this is no longer really the case. While there are some remaining heterodox Unitarian Christian parishes in the UUA, like King’s Chapel in Boston, I am not aware of a single parish in the UUA which has a normal Nicene Christology. On the other hand, a great many are seriously into neo-Paganism, Wicca and other occult practices, and many others have atheist “reverends.”

Unofficially, one will find a number of universalists in the “mainline” denominations, however, even the United Church of Christ has not formally dogmatized universalism.

D. B. Eller asserts in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology that it is clear that "Universalism, in a variety of forms, continues to have appeal for contemporary faith, in both liberal and conservative circles."

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology not withstanding, within the evangelical movement universalism is definitely not a mainstream movement. Indeed, one of the central messages and motivations for the evangelical movement, which is reflected throughout the movement, underpinning the sermons of the late Rev. Billy Graham (Requiescat in Pace), and motivating the piety of the lay faithful, is a desire to spread the Gospel so as to save sinners through faith in Jesus Christ, so that they might be spared eternal damnation.

"We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, and all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest of heart and subdue the stoutest will." Dr. E.W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible

Dr. E.W. Bullinger was perhaps the strangest and most eccentric man ever to serve as a priest in the Church of England. His strange beliefs included both astrology and numerology, and he was also a Flat Earther. He is not at present regarded as a particularly important, credible or relevant theologian.

Outside of the realm of Eastern Orthodoxy, where there is a problem with some intellectuals like Dr. David Bentley Hart and some otherwise insignificant priests defying the hierarchy and Holy Tradition as defined by the ecumenical councils and doctrinal definitions relied on by the Orthodox churches, none of which has recognized universalism as being anything other than a heresy, a far more common and pressing concern, in terms of departures from traditional, normative eschatological orthodoxy is annihilationism, which, alas, has become increasingly common in some Restorationist denominations, for example, the SDAs, but which cannot be correlated to the consensus patrum of the early church.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Actually, the Entire Sanctification soteriology of John Wesley was basically a Westernized explanation of the ancient doctrine of Theosis, preserved in the Orthodox churches, which Wesley studied (I expect Wesley initially came into contact with it via the Moravians, who were not merely the oldest Protestant denomination, but were also a denomination that specifically came into being because of the extreme dissatisfaction of Bohemian Christians, who had historically been Eastern Orthodox, at having Latin Rite Catholicism imposed on them; Jan Hus and his followers, who eventually became Moravian, were basically seeking a restoration of those things which Eastern Orthodoxy gave and Roman Catholicism took away, namely, communion in both species, and a vernacular liturgy). Indeed, Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague were recently glorified (canonized) as saints in the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia.

It should be stressed very strongly that neither the Moravians, nor the Methodists, nor the Eastern Orthodox, are Universalist, indeed, the recent outbreak of universalism in Eastern Orthodoxy is patently absurd when one reads various EO texts on the ascetic life, on temptation and on spiritual delusion, and also when one contemplates certain Eastern Orthodox icons such as the Ladder of Divine Ascent. So the unfortunate embrace of universalism by the likes of David Bentley Hart is utterly baffling.



It should be stressed that hope for all is not the same as universalism. I myself hope everyone repents. However, based on scripture, I also have to acknowledge, as Martin Luther and John Wesley did, that this is extremely unlikely, because there are some people who despise God and, consumed by that hate, set themselves against him eternally, so that the consuming fire of God’s infinite love is experienced by them as agonizing torture (God, being pure love, does not seek to inflict pain; rather, it is the self-originated evil nature of reprobates who, having chosen to hate God rather than embrace His transformative and salvific love, which causes them to be tortured). The words of CS Lewis, who most definitely was not a Universalist, seem apt here: “The gates of Hell are locked on the inside.”



That is inaccurate. The majority of serious contemporary theologians across the different denominations, including N.T. Wright*, Pope Benedict XVI (during his career as a scholar and as Cardinal Prefect of the Holy Office, during which time he published many books before being elected Pope in 2005), Karl Barth**, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware of Diokleia, Dr. Albert Mohler, and a great many others, reject the idea of universal salvation.

Conversely, a believe that apokatasis was absolutely inevitable was held by several early church fathers, such as Origen, and to a much lesser extent, St. Gregory of Nyssa. This belief was also at one time prevalent in the Church of the East, sometimes erroneously called the Nestorian Church, being articulated in the writings of St. Isaac the Syrian (who is venerated not just by the Church of the East, but also by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, among others) and in the Book of the Bee, a summarized history of creation, the Church and eschatology, by the bishop Mar Solomon Akhlat Bassora.



Among the minority of ultra-liberal, neo-Gnostic “theologians” like Elaine Pagels or Karen King, perhaps, but not among the mainstream theologians whose work actually matters to Christians outaide of the tiny, fast-shrinking bubble of the dying mainline denominations.



There is nothing “orthodox” about Universalism.

I know of only one “denomination”, and I use the term loosely, that officially embraces universalism, and that is the apostate Unitarian Universalist Association. The UUs are a non-Christian cult which took over many of the oldest Congregational churches in New England in the 18th century, initially adhering to a heretical (contrary to the Nicene Creed, the CF.com statement of faith) Unitarian Christology, before degenerating into transcendentalism under the influence of Ralph Waldo Emerson (who was a Unitarian minister before quitting in protest over it being too Christian for his rarefied tastes...seriously, you can’t make this stuff up) and then merging with the Universalist Church, which prior to its merger with the Unitarians had been nominally Christian, but this is no longer really the case. While there are some remaining heterodox Unitarian Christian parishes in the UUA, like King’s Chapel in Boston, I am not aware of a single parish in the UUA which has a normal Nicene Christology. On the other hand, a great many are seriously into neo-Paganism, Wicca and other occult practices, and many others have atheist “reverends.”

Unofficially, one will find a number of universalists in the “mainline” denominations, however, even the United Church of Christ has not formally dogmatized universalism.



The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology not withstanding, within the evangelical movement universalism is definitely not a mainstream movement. Indeed, one of the central messages and motivations for the evangelical movement, which is reflected throughout the movement, underpinning the sermons of the late Rev. Billy Graham (Requiescat in Pace), and motivating the piety of the lay faithful, is a desire to spread the Gospel so as to save sinners through faith in Jesus Christ, so that they might be spared eternal damnation.



Dr. E.W. Bullinger was perhaps the strangest and most eccentric man ever to serve as a priest in the Church of England. His strange beliefs included both astrology and numerology, and he was also a Flat Earther. He is not at present regarded as a particularly important, credible or relevant theologian.

Outside of the realm of Eastern Orthodoxy, where there is a problem with some intellectuals like Dr. David Bentley Hart and some otherwise insignificant priests defying the hierarchy and Holy Tradition as defined by the ecumenical councils and doctrinal definitions relied on by the Orthodox churches, none of which has recognized universalism as being anything other than a heresy, a far more common and pressing concern, in terms of departures from traditional, normative eschatological orthodoxy is annihilationism, which, alas, has become increasingly common in some Restorationist denominations, for example, the SDAs, but which cannot be correlated to the consensus patrum of the early church.

The biggy problem for both dogmas of unending torture (unending punishment) and annililation = the same dismal conclusion!

God cannot be the consummation of the all.

In short: He loses most of those for whom He is the propitiation.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
82
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟551,042.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The biggy problem for both dogmas of unending torture (unending punishment) and annililation = the same dismal conclusion!

God cannot be the consummation of the all.

In short: He loses most of those for whom He is the propitiation.

God must have designed what He knew would be the eternal destiny of each individual of our race.

If He knew all would be saved, He must have designed the salvation of all; and if He knew part would be saved, and part damned without relief and without end, He must have designed the salvation of some and the damnation/ annililation of others.

Every man designs what he knows will be the result of his voluntary acts. If I know when I speak to a certain person he will fall at my feet dead, and if I persist in speaking to him with this knowledge of the consequence, I, of course, intend he shall die.

If God knows the destiny of all men, and He does, all who go to heaven will go there by His decree, and all who go to one of the hells will go there by His decree.

This is just as certain as that two and two make four.

Arminianism, then, is resolved into Calvinism.

Would God have created conscious beings, knowing and intending that everlasting misery/ everlasting death would be their doom?

Impossible, utterly impossible ! ! !
 
Upvote 0

Jord Simcha

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
457
529
48
Groningen
✟68,422.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Universalism is just a spin-off of Calvinism and is just as disgusting, because it's a lie and it discourages people from preaching the gospel to every creature.
Calvinism: God predestining people to hell = disgusting & thank God false

Universalism: God predestining everybody to heaven = brilliant, awesome, divine and thank God, true


And, univeralists are pretty active in their evangelism, I find.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.