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The Demise of Evolution

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Job 33:6

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If I'd said "...not supported in any way.... by history" you'd have a point. But I didn't, I deliberately included the word "meaningful". Why do you think I did that?

The broad sweeping statement came from roman initially.

I'd say it was a poor choice of words.

And Roman stated that part of his faith is based in the historicity of scripture. For which there is meaningful support for scripture, ie that Jesus lived and was crucified (this is about as meaningful as historical accounts can get when it comes to the Christian faith).

He wasn't talking about historical evidence for...feeding the 5000, or even for Adam and Eve (there is no historical evidence for these, even by Christians understanding). He was talking about historicity of Jesus.
 
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Job 33:6

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You did not quote me in full, nor did you quote me in context. That's a quote mine.

I quoted your entire line item "B". Regarding context, sorry I'm not a mind reader.
 
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Subduction Zone

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@Bungle_Bear

What would meet your criteria of meaningful historical evidence for a global flood?

"Historical evidence"? I don't think there can be. When was the flood supposed to have occurred? To be fair the time and details of the flood should first come from believers. If they cannot come up with a testable model then they cannot have any reliable evidence for their flood.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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I'd say it was a poor choice of words.

And Roman stated that part of his faith is based in the historicity of scripture. For which there is meaningful support for scripture, ie that Jesus lived and was crucified (this is about as meaningful as historical accounts can get when it comes to the Christian faith).

He wasn't talking about historical evidence for...feeding the 5000, or even for Adam and Eve (there is no historical evidence for these, even by Christians understanding). He was talking about historicity of Jesus.
The claim I responded to, and which you have quoted several times too, is a claim of historical, archaeological, scientific and prophetic support for Scripture. You don't get to move the goalposts at this stage and say he's talking about just the historicity of Jesus.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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I quoted your entire line item "B".
I went back and checked, and I can quite categorically state that you did not quote my entire line item "B".
Regarding context, sorry I'm not a mind reader.
You do understand what context is? In this case it would be the post I was responding to, previous claims made etc. It's all there to be read. No mind reading required.
 
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Job 33:6

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The claim I responded to, and which you have quoted several times too, is a claim of historical support for Scripture.

Scripture, in large part, involves historical accounts of Jesus, which plays a significant role in Christian faith.

When you hear a Christian talking about historical accounts in scripture, and history in support of Christianity, especially when also considered along with archaeology, then what they're referring to is the historicity of Jesus, the crucifixion, his journeys and things of that nature.

They're usually are not talking about historical corroboration of miracles such as feeding the 5000, walking on water, Adam and Eve etc.

This is the context of Romans words.

So when you replied suggesting that there was no meaningful evidence in support of scripture as it pertains to history, naturally, it came off as an absurd reply.

It sounds like your idea of "meaningful" is different from any believer, if you believe that the historicity of Jesus is not meaningful, as it pertains to the Christian faith, or Romans faith in particular.

Personally, I would say that the historicity of scripture, is absolutely meaningful, in that without first recognizing the existence of Jesus, we couldn't even begin to question of history supports Jesus' miracles.
 
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Larniavc

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The Scriptures which is backed up by history, archaeology, science and prophecies that have been fulfilled
That is where you go wrong.
 
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Job 33:6

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I went back and checked, and I can quite categorically state that you did not quote my entire line item "B".

.

Here it is:

"B. I'll say the Scriptures are not supported in any meaningful way (and are often contradicted) by history, archaeology, science and failed prophecies."

Hasn't changed.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Here it is:

"B. I'll say the Scriptures are not supported in any meaningful way (and are often contradicted) by history, archaeology, science and failed prophecies."

Hasn't changed.
Must be a problem my end, then, because all I see is you quoting:

"B. I'll say the Scriptures are not supported in any meaningful way (and are often contradicted) by history...."

Funny how, if you're quoting me in full and in context, the only part you address is historicity of Jesus. Why not archaeological evidence for Jesus? Scientific evidence for Scripture? It's almost as if you are only quoting part of what I said and responding to that part out of context.
 
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Job 33:6

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"Historical evidence"? I don't think there can be. When was the flood supposed to have occurred? To be fair the time and details of the flood should first come from believers. If they cannot come up with a testable model then they cannot have any reliable evidence for their flood.

Exactly. And its this line of thought, that further lead me to the understanding that bunglebear was referring to non-miracle related historical evidence. As the alternative is something for which there cannot be that seems absurd. As well as the understanding that when most Christians speak of history and archaeology as it pertains to scripture, they're usually talking about non-miracles, such as the crucifixion or historicity of Jesus.

bungle Bear is defining meaning with use of scientific objectivity which is why he refers to miracles. But if we're talking about miracles, We know that there is no such thing as meaningful historical evidence for anything. His ideas simply ar en't reflective of the context of a Romans initial post. and the word meaningful should not necessarily be defined by scientific objectivity especially in the context of history.
 
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Job 33:6

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Must be a problem my end, then, because all I see is you quoting:

"B. I'll say the Scriptures are not supported in any meaningful way (and are often contradicted) by history"

Check post 1550. The meaning of words is not changed by shortening your sentence, as the additional line items were of different topics. Hence why you added commas, to distinguish between ideas.

If I said that I like cookies and ice cream, I wouldn't call it a quote mine if someone said that I like cookies, even if they left out the ice cream, because the meaning remains the same with respect to cookies (the subject of discussion).
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Check post 1550. The meaning of words is not changed by shortening your sentence, as the additional line items were of different topics. Hence why you added commas, to distinguish between ideas.
Commas do not mean that what follows is a different context, particularly when they are a direct reference to a preceding post. The context is the entire sentence and all that it encompasses, not just the one word you want to focus on.

If I said that I like cookies and ice cream, I wouldn't call it a quote mine if someone said that I like cookies, even if they left out the ice cream, because the meaning remains the same with respect to cookies (the subject of discussion).
If we were talking about foods you like, leaving out ice cream and then claiming that you said you only like chocolate cookies would be a quote mine and changing the meaning of what you actually said.
 
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Job 33:6

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Commas do not mean that what follows is a different context, particularly when they are a direct reference to a preceding post. The context is the entire sentence and all that it encompasses, not just the one word you want to focus on.


If we were talking about foods you like, leaving out ice cream and then claiming that you said you only like chocolate cookies would be a quote mine and changing the meaning of what you actually said.

By leaving out ice cream, the person isn't saying that I don't like ice cream, nor is the person claiming that it is all that I said.

Let's review.

Person A: I like cookies, ice cream and cake.

Person B: You said "I like cookies". You're crazy, cookies are horrible.

Person A: you're quote mining me! You left out ice cream and cake!

No, it doesn't work like that. The meaning of your quoted words "I like cookies" isn't altered by the removal of "ice cream".

And if you wrote three separate sentences: "I like ice cream.", " I like cake." and "I like cookies", your words would still hold the same meaning. It's just that using commas is common when listing individual subjects. So if I quote one of the three, that's not twisting anything, it's just an observation of your words as they truly are. You typed correctly by using good Grammer to combine multiple ideas into one sentence. But by breaking your sentence, the context is not changed, nor is the meaning of the words.

And what you thought in your independent mind, may have been of a different context than what you physically typed, but it isn't my personal mission to translate everyone's thoughts whenever they aren't clear with their words, and I'm not a mind reader. You could have simply chosen better words.
 
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roman2819

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Are you referring to post 1217? They were links to posts where I described how life may have got started. So it kinda doesn't make sense that you would ask me to put it into my own words when the links you are talking about already are my own words.

How about you actually read those links first, okay? The Demise of Evolution



Can you give me an example of some event which is taken as factual which does not have any actual evidence to support it?



And I'm suggesting that they didn't examine that evidence as critically as they should have because it told them what they wanted to believe.



What something tastes like is a subjective experience. If we are talking about an objective fact, then that's not the best analogy.

I click of couple of the 5 links you provided, and they led me to previous postings by yourself, you were answering questions from others, giving them your opinion and interpretations of things. There was NOTHING credible from you to try to provide explanation on how life begin.

So as I said, there is still no credible explanation about how life begins. No proof that eons of time ago, a tiny amoeba or cell or whatever started to breathe and very gradually transform to two, then 20, then the millions of diversities we see around us.

The reason I took almost 3 weeks to click on the links is I have other priorities and more importantly, I didn’t expect you to have good theories to offer – because this area is still very much at a work-in-progress stage among scientist and microbiologists, nothing conclusive, far from it.
 
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roman2819

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"There is no fossils tbat are found intact to demonstrate that one lifeform evolve to another higher ones. No one found a fish-toad, so to speak. " - @roman2819

I'll just copy some text from my other post:

I'll now provide evidence for evolution as it pertains to the question "Or do you think fossils actually support evolution better than being hard proof of the flood?".


As we all know, tiktaalik is a popular transitional fossil. Its traits are significant as they're some of the earliest of their kind. It has a flat head with eyes on top, much like amphibians of the late devonian. It has wrist bones. It has spiracles for breathing air. It has robust pectoral girdles and a robust rib cage for lifting itself against the forces of gravity above water, much like amphibians of the late devonian. It also has an infused skull and a neck for turning it's it's while it's body remains stationary, which is something found in amphibians but not fish.

It is very much a tetrapodomorph with many traits of amphibians.

But it also has fins,gills and scales like a fish.

Which means that it was basically a hybrid between fish and tetrapods.

All the above aside, what makes tiktaalik more significant isn't simply its traits, but how, where and even "when" it was found.

In the fossil record, no land animals are found anywhere in precambrian, Cambrian, ordovician or silurian rock, nor anywhere in between. By the mid to late devonian, we find tetrapods/amphibians like salamander like species that walked on land.

So if evolution were true, of tetrapods evolved from fish, a species like tiktaalik ought to exist between the earliest formations of the devonian or by the end of the silurian at the latest, and the late devonian.

Before tiktaalik was found, Neil Shubin and his team knew this. So the scoured geologic maps for rocks of roughly the mid devonian to find rocks between fish and tetrapods where tiktaalik might hypothetically be found.

So they rented a helicopter trip to the Canadian Arctic where these middle aged rocks could be examined.

They originally started out searching marine devonian strata and realized that they needed to move inland (prehistoric inland) to the west, and they had to make their way to geology of a river bed/lacustrine origin. And it was there that some 10-15 tiktaalik specimen were found.

The reason that this serves as evidence for evolution is that it confirms the succession of fossils in accordance with genetic analyses of modern day life. Fish are genetically more similar to tetrapods than to any other animal of higher derivation, which means that it ought to follow, based on genetics, that tiktaalik ought to be present in the location in which it was later found. This is a prediction made with the understanding of descent with modification and common descent, and tiktaalik holds the feature that we might expect to be found in a particular place at a given time.

with the above said, see the following:

Google Image Result for http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/retrovirus.gif

Google Image Result for https://cdn.britannica.com/03/403-050-F1B9349F/Phylogeny-differences-cytochrome-c-protein-sequence-organisms.jpg

Google Image Result for http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/levin/bio213/evolution/cytochrome.2.gif

Google Image Result for https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/5/eaau7459/F1.large.jpg

Google Image Result for https://slideplayer.com/slide/4852752/15/images/3/Pituitary+Gland+Figure+Phylogeny+of+the+vertebrate+pituitary..jpg

Google Image Result for https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?download&size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000436.g002

above, we have evolutionary relationships based on what species have certain endogenous retroviruses, based on genetic changes of cytochrome C, based on fossil morphology, based on comparative anatomy of living species, and even based on biogeographic distributions, (you can see fossils change not only vertically through the fossil record, but also horizontally), respectively.

Independent studies in each of these fields yield their own cladistic relationships/phylogenetic trees, and while theyre all derived independently, they all match one another.

Which is to say that you can make predictions about genetics, based on the order in which fossils are found in the earth, and the reverse is true as well, in that we can use studies of proteins and DNA in modern day species, to predict the depth, geospatial location and temporal locations of fossils. And these predictions can be made, even to the extent that biologists can predict where fossils will be found in the earth, sometimes with more precision than even paleontologists can.

As the commom statement goes, this is something that really only makes sense in light of evolution.

To go back to my prior post, Neil Shubin is a professor of anatomy. He understood or rather, understands anatomical relationships between fish and tetrapods, and it is with this understanding that the locality of tiktaalik was predicted (Along with assistance from geologists and paleontologists).

Today’s labour day holiday give me time to view the entire video, it is an informative and interesting findings, and even though I don’t have the technical knowledge to understand all the terms and implications, it is still possible to follow what he was getting what, ie the lecture material was not rocket sciene.

Some questions and my beliefs:

If evolution is happening on a large scale, then we should see many more fossil evidence of such in-between creatures. After T, if evolution continued, then we would see more fossils of amphibians-mammals on land. But we hardly see any. So far there are only bits and pieces, nothing conclusive. I cannot say findings support evolution because it is just one specie.

Second, I always maintain that a limited kind of changes is possible. Horses living on different terrain have different traits to adapt to the needs. There was a report of a giant insect almost two feet and there are many findings of giant mammoth skeletons. And there are even dinosaur skeletons in various continents. But All these could mean that there is a Creator who made them. It is also possible God made the T too.

In this thread, most evolutionists do not say how life begin . They try to explain how life evolve. But no one explain how life begins (though I notice a few deviations last month).

How life begins is still the fundamental question. If life starts by itself and change, it wouldn’t turn out so well, with millions of lifeforms so perfectly formed.
 
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roman2819

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AnotherAtheist

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I click of couple of the 5 links you provided, and they led me to previous postings by yourself, you were answering questions from others, giving them your opinion and interpretations of things. There was NOTHING credible from you to try to provide explanation on how life begin.

So as I said, there is still no credible explanation about how life begins. No proof that eons of time ago, a tiny amoeba or cell or whatever started to breathe and very gradually transform to two, then 20, then the millions of diversities we see around us.

The reason I took almost 3 weeks to click on the links is I have other priorities and more importantly, I didn’t expect you to have good theories to offer – because this area is still very much at a work-in-progress stage among scientist and microbiologists, nothing conclusive, far from it.

Can you give me your exact definition of 'credible'? I would say that mutually self-reproducing RNA molecules arising in a chemical soup (and RNA can be generated by plausible early earth chemistry) being aided by spontaneous generation of lipid cells (again which happens quite easily) is entirely believable.

I'm not saying that's how life started - I personally believe that eventually we'll have a number of entirely plausible pathways by which life could have started and we'll never know which one happened. However, it's able to be beleved. It's plausible. It could work. And, having checked the meaning of 'credible' in a number of dictionaries - that definition fits.
 
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roman2819

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You claim that there is 'overwhelming circumstantial evidences' for creation, then where is this evidence. As when the evidence is properly collected and analysed, there is a lot of hard evidence for natural explanations of the world and life that does not require a creator.

You are claiming that Christians' experience of the supernatural is different frorm that of people of other religions. Can you give stronger evidence of that than a single constructed example. There are plenty of people from different religions who are prepared to die for their religion and who claim that they have direct experience of God or there gods. E.g. Experience of God in Hinduism along the Gîtâ

We see these claims all the time. People from different religions claim that their religion is special, and distinct from all others. However, people from all reliigions claim this and none of them can build a stronger case than any other. The obvious conclusion in my eyes: no religion is more supported by evidence than any other, and therefore they are all wrong. If one of them was divinely inspired, then it should be recognisably different from all the other ones.



People from other religions claim the same about their holy books. https://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html Hindu Prophecies - Crystalinks There is nothing in The Bible to show knowledge outside of what people at that time would have known. And nothing to show the authors of The Bible made prophecies that imply supernatural knowledge. Aggressive interpretation of the text to shoe-horn in scientific discoveries or propehcy does not count as that can be done with any religious text.



Are you claiming that the fact that the majority of people in the world are religious in some way shows that religion is correct? If we go back to the correct time period, most people in the world would have believed that the world is flat and other incorrect beliefs. BTW: It's about 7%, and rising. Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia



Why not? People debate online. This is entirely normal.


Overwhelming circumstantial evidences are the millions of likeforms, ecosystem and universe we see arond us. They pointed to a creatot if we don't deny such truth.

You were saying: People from different religions claim that their religion is special, and distinct from all others.

I do not see people of other religions sharing such about their walk with their gods,, thats the difference. Mostly their gods are images on altar. THey prayed for safety and blessings but do not talk about thier gods or where the gods come from.

Many people around me has religions and gods. Today I walk past the shop, and this guy display images of many gods at shop windows: buddha, confucious (who never claimed to be god). chinese goddess of mercy , hindu gods etc He hope to get all the help he can.

Willing to die per se does not mean their god is true. They could be misled, brainwashed.

I looked for three levels of proof as i mentioned, not just a relationship based on feeling and secuirty. THere is Bible to back up exitence of Christian God.

I may answer the other points later if I have time.
 
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