Are You of Israel?

[BobRyan]

Romans 11:24
For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Both the Israelites and Gentiles are branches of the same olive tree. The olive tree is the household of God (the people of God). The root of the olive tree is Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:16-18
If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches (Israelites) were broken off, and you (Gentiles), a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their (the Israelites') place to share the richness of the olive tree (household of God), 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root (Jesus Christ) that supports you.

Israel is the "natural branch" in that vine and gentiles are grafted in - but as God points out in Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-12 it is called "Israel" and the New Covenant is made with Israel both OT and NT -- i.e. "believers"

 

[BobRyan]

Who else wants to relate the new covenant to who is Israel? Yes or No question is my assumption of your prophetic view correct?

By looking at prophecy we can see that spiritual Israel is those who have accepted the new covenant

True as Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-12 are showing us that the New Covenant is "unchanged" OT/NT

Now this shows redemption was only by the blood of Jesus from Adam to the end. And they made it from every tribe, tongue kindred and nation.

true. Gal 1:6-9 "One Gospel" and Gal 3:8 "That Gospel was preached to Abraham"

It is in the case of the new-birth, new-heart "believer" that we have the "NEW Covenant" in Jer 31:31-34 with the "Law of God" written on the heart.

Exegesis insists that we admit that the "LAW of God" known to Jeremiah and his readers included the TEN spoken by God at Sinai -- in which as Paul says "the FIRST commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:1-2

And surely you are right that the blood of animals had not merit outside of the blood of Christ "The Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" which is how we find Moses and Elijah standing "in glory" with Christ in Matthew 17 -- BEFORE the cross.

 

[visionary]

Not a new faith, but new rules. A new covenant.

From the start of his ministry, immediately after the beatitudes in Matthew 5, I see Jesus modifying God's rules. Some he made tougher, such as saying physical faithfulness to a spouse isn't enough; even our thoughts must remain faithful. Others he loosened, such as the dietary ones.

For the past 2,000 years all of the nations of the world have been offered a new covenant. God hasn't changed, but his covenant and his rules have. Would you agree with that?

Noting you mentioned is a new rule... clarification... yes

 

[Minister Monardo]

Which Paul says is Israel in Romans 9.

Rom
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

I am with you on this, here is what came up back in #128:
I don't find Paul that hard to understand. Paul is not contradicting YHWH by saying not all Israel is Israel, but in Isaac shall your seed be. He is just refining, even as YHWH refined his choices. He called Israel a nation of priests. That didn't last long. That calling became Levi. Many are called, few are chosen. He is a refining fire. Am I contradicting Hosea.
Hosea 4:6. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Come on, Man! That's a hard saying.
And then in #136.
Yes, I know. But this is a fine point, with a very good reason.
Romans 9:6, 7. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I posted this once before earlier today, you may not have seen it yet, so here it is again. The promise to Abraham was a fine point. Isaac fulfills the promise. Now look at Moriah for one of the most important prophecies in Genesis.

 

[ChetSinger]

Noting you mentioned is a new rule... clarification... yes

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

Are you promoting that Christians should follow the Mosaic laws? All 600 of them? If so, should I understand that you follow them yourself? All 600 of them?

 

[Davy]

I think we have to develop some kind of time line for the inclusion of the Gentiles so we can reconcile God's instruction to Jesus regarding his commission to go only to the house of Israel (which instruction also included the disciples). That Jesus was "obedient unto death" demands that he kept his father's words...to the letter. Of course this can be done by establishing two differing ministries; that of Jesus and the disciples to the house of Israel, and Paul to the Gentile world generally. Conflating them confuses both.

But that thinking is still... a slow creeping back to believing that God chose the seed of Israel involving a Salvation by flesh when that wasn't the case at all, as Paul shows in Romans 9. We cannot scrap one Scripture witness in favor of another, both have to agree with each other.

And they do; the idea that Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel applies in the sense that The Gospel had to be preached first starting at Jerusalem, and then once the Jews rejected it, it would then go to the Gentiles, which just so happened to be where the majority of the ten lost tribes were scattered. The fact that The Gospel went to Gentiles to fulfill what our Lord Jesus said doesn't detract at all from what Paul taught about the Promise in Romans 9.

My point all along of just who is God's Israel has been how the name 'Israel' which is the NEW name God gave to Jacob, it was about the Promise by Faith first given to Abraham all along!

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV

What can be seen with this is that God had a BIGGER PLAN all along, even starting with Abraham, as He used the rebellion of the tribes of Israel as a way to include the believing Gentiles in His Salvation. The majority of Jews haven't understood this because what it actually was about is that the Promise God first gave Abraham by Faith was The Gospel of Jesus Christ all along. Because the false Jew crept in unawares in their leadership has basically hidden that from them by defaulting to their Talmudic traditions instead. That is still the origins of their wrong thinking of Salvation by the flesh.

 

[visionary]

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

Are you promoting that Christians should follow the Mosaic laws? All 600 of them? If so, should I understand that you follow them yourself? All 600 of them?

Some are ceremonial, some are moral, some are for females, some are for males, some are for farmers, some are for priests, some are for the military,...etc etc etc.... No one can follow them all because they do not apply to everyone. Some are ordiances, some are statutes, and some are the moral laws that all must follow. Some are seasonal, some are for certain age groups, some are for strangers, some are for the leaders, ... When it come to understanding them in the Light of Yeshua, then you see some are symbolic of His Work and are what He does, will do, and we can look forward to Him making them come to be the "shadow' is Christ. You asked if Christians should follow them. You do realize that 50 years ago when I was a child, it was talk in all sunday school to follow the moral laws. Today it is not taught. Sadly, Christianity has drifted off its moral course.

 

[HARK!]

Yes, I know. But this is a fine point, with a very good reason.
Romans 9:6, 7. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Didn't Yahshua say the same thing when he called them sons of Satan. I've covered this in this thread.

but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I posted this once before earlier today, you may not have seen it yet, so here it is again. The promise to Abraham was a fine point. Isa

I don't see what you're getting at.

 

[HARK!]

Abraham was a Gentile when he was called and his faith was reckoned as righteousness.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Davy]

Again, Paul isn't going to disagree with YHWH and Yahshua. YHWH clearly says that his covenant is with Israel.

There is no mention of YHWH making his covenant with Pagans. Pagans must repent in order to become Israel.

You keep sliding off into that point of God making a covenant through Moses when the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham had nothing to do with the old covenant! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is what the Promise by Faith is about, and was about, even at the first, when God gave it to Abraham.

(CLV) Jn 8:39
They answered and say to Him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus answered them, "If you are children of Abraham, did you ever do the works of Abraham?

My Bible translation instead reads, "... ye would do the works of Abraham." (KJV) Jesus then said to them...

John 8:40
40 But now ye seek to kill Me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
KJV

Then Jesus laid the hammer on them, revealing their true origin, i.e., the children of darkness...

John 8:41-45
41 'Ye do the deeds of your father.' Then said they to Him, 'We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.'

42 Jesus said unto them, 'If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.
KJV

Who was the first murderer??? It was Cain who murdered his brother Abel. Jesus is pointing to those He is speaking to in John 8 as being the children of darkness, followers of the devil.

 

[HARK!]

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

 

[HARK!]

You do realize that 50 years ago when I was a child, it was talk in all sunday school to follow the moral laws. Today it is not taught. Sadly, Christianity has drifted off its moral course.

Church is big business. If you start pushing too much truth; you'll lose customers.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

Are you promoting that Christians should follow the Mosaic laws? All 600 of them? If so, should I understand that you follow them yourself? All 600 of them?

as opposed to the 1050 commands of the NT?
1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

Is it your claim that God has had a limit placed on what He can say now?

Those "600" commands include "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12 ... are those the parts of God's word that Christians need to avoid in your POV?

 

[HARK!]

You keep sliding off into that point of God making a covenant through Moses when the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham had nothing to do with the old covenant!

Pure rubbish! But don't just take my word for it.

(CLV) Hb 11:28
By faith he has the passover made and the pouring of blood against the door jambs, lest the |exterminator of the first-born may come into |contact with them.

The theme of faith is sewn throughout the whole story of Moses.

 

[Davy]

(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

Those without Christ Jesus are doomed to burn in the future "lake of fire"...

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV

John 8:21-24
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, "I go My way, and ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come."
22 Then said the Jews, "Will he kill Himself? because He saith, 'Whither I go, ye cannot come.'"
23 And He said unto them, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
KJV

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
KJV

2 Thess 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
KJV

Rev 20:15
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Rev 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

 

[HARK!]

My Bible translation instead reads, "... ye would do the works of Abraham." (KJV) Jesus then said to them...

The CLV is a literal translation.

 

[Davy]

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

I defer to my Post #155.

 

[BobRyan]

I am with you on this, here is what came up back in #128:
I don't find Paul that hard to understand. Paul is not contradicting YHWH by saying not all Israel is Israel, but in Isaac shall your seed be. He is just refining, even as YHWH refined his choices. He called Israel a nation of priests. That didn't last long. That calling became Levi. Many are called, few are chosen. He is a refining fire. Am I contradicting Hosea.
Hosea 4:6. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Come on, Man! That's a hard saying.
And then in #136.
Yes, I know. But this is a fine point, with a very good reason.
Romans 9:6, 7. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I posted this once before earlier today, you may not have seen it yet, so here it is again. The promise to Abraham was a fine point. Isaac fulfills the promise. Now look at Moriah for one of the most important prophecies in Genesis.

once you say admit that it is the "believers" in OT and NT that are the "Israel" God mentioned in Jer 31:31-34, and in Heb 8:6-12 -- on whose heart God writes His Law -- OT and NT, then the typology found in the OT pointing to Christ - including Isaac at Moriah (replaced by the Ram caught in the thicket) is more clearly seen "as a type" of Christ.

However "Do not take God's name in vain" is an important commandment all the same and as Christ shows us in Matthew 5 - those commandments only "magnify" in the context of the gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

You keep sliding off into that point of God making a covenant through Moses when the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham had nothing to do with the old covenant! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is what the Promise by Faith is about, and was about, even at the first, when God gave it to Abraham.

It is all about the old covenant vs new covenant ... that has always been the case.

The old covenant is "obey and live" it is the first covenant made with Adam before the fall and he could easily comply -- he was sinless. But he chose not to comply.

The new covenant is made with mankind starting in Genesis 3 with the promise of the Messiah - from that point on as Hebrews 11 points out it was "righteousness by faith" in Christ, that was the only path to salvation and part from that all mankind is condemned by the simple covenant "obey and live" since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23

Gal 3:8 the "Gospel was preached to Abraham"
Gal 1:6-9 that is "the one and only Gospel" there never was any other.
In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glory , before the cross, because of that "one and only Gospel".

In Heb 11 - Enoch before the flood - was taken to heaven without dying - by that same - one and only Gospel system.

 

[HARK!]

as opposed to the 1050 commands of the NT?
1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

Is it your claim that God has had a limit placed on what He can say now?

Awesome find!