Are You of Israel?

[Jan001]

I am a descendant of Abraham's lineage by faith.

I am not a descendant of Israel's lineage by blood and I do not ever need to be.

Abraham first became righteous by his faith, and then years after Abraham's righteousness was reckoned to him by his faith, Jacob/Israel later became a biological descendant of Abraham through Abraham's son Isaac.

The good news for me is that I am grafted into the olive tree (household of God) by my faith instead of by any biological lineage requirements such as the first covenant's circumcision requirement for males and the additional requirement to obey to the Law of Moses.

Romans 4:16
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the adherents of the law but also to those (Gentiles) who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all,

It does not matter to God if a person is a biological descendant of Abraham. What matters to God is if the person is a spiritual descendant of Abraham. A Gentile does not ever need to become an Israelite in order to be accepted as a spiritual son/daughter of Abraham.

Galatians 3:7
So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

 

[HARK!]

How is it you use these verses from John 8 to support Yeshua and His covenant with Israel.
All I see mentioned is Abraham, as does Paul.
Galatians 3:29. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You chopped off the last verse in that series. It's important to understanding my point:




There is no mention of YHWH making his covenant with Pagans. Pagans must repent in order to become Israel.

(CLV) Jn 8:39
They answered and say to Him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus answered them, "If you are children of Abraham, did you ever do the works of Abraham?

(CLV) Jn 8:42
Jesus, then, said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For out of God I came forth and am arriving. For neither have I come of Myself, but He commissions Me.

(CLV) Jn 8:44
You/ are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it.


(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the law.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


Yahshua claimed that these blood descendants of Abraham were of Satan; because they didn't do the works of Abraham; and that they didn't love him. Yahshua said if you love him; you keep his precepts. His precepts are his fathers precepts. So you see, the children who are not of Satan, do the works of Abraham and keep the precepts.


(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

From Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

 

[ChetSinger]

That is not within the scope, nor the purpose of this thread. I have no interest in conducting such a study. As you can see, I'm non denominational. I don't hold to any denominational doctrine. I've seen bickering going on even within denominations. I take what each individual brings to me; and I weigh that with scripture.

OK. I don't see congruence between the ideas in this thread and historical Christianity. Nor with Paul's letter to the Galatians, among other NT scriptures. So your empty answer was what I thought I'd read.

The apostles released me from the burden of the law of Moses and their words weigh more to me than yours do. So carry that burden yourself if you wish.

 

[HARK!]

If you want to use Paul's teachings for this, then he specifically did NOT say Israel, but
Romans 9:6, 7. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

I don't want to blot Paul out of the book because he can sometimes be difficult to understand.

YHWH clearly made his covenant with Israel. We have two witnesses. Surely Paul isn't contradicting Jeremiah's testimony; so what do you think that Paul is trying to tell us here?

 

[Jan001]

YHWH didn't make his covenant with the Jews. He made it with Israel. The Pagan mixed multitude entered covenant; and they became Israel......

No, the majority of the pagans aka non-Israelites did not enter into God's (first) covenant with Israel. Instead, the non-Israelites entered into God's second covenant (a new and better covenant) with Jesus Christ as their mediator between God and mankind.

Acts 26:22-23
To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: 23 that the Christ must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to the people (Israelites) and to the Gentiles.”

Please note that by Christ's rising from the dead, He would proclaim light to both the Israelites and the Gentiles.

Acts 28:25-29
So, as they disagreed among themselves, they departed, after Paul had made one statement: “The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:
26 ‘Go to this people, and say,
You shall indeed hear but never understand,
and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
27 For this people’s (Israelites') heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should perceive with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.’
28 Let it be known to you then that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.”

Romans 15:12
and further Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse shall come, he who rises to rule the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles hope.”


I entered directly into the new covenant of Jesus Christ. The first covenant was no longer in use when I became a Christian under the second/new covenant.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

Hebrews 10:9
then he added, “Lo, I have come to do thy will.” He abolishes the first (covenant) in order to establish the second (covenant).

 

[Minister Monardo]

You chopped off the last verse in that series. It's important to understanding my point:




There is no mention of YHWH making his covenant with Pagans. Pagans must repent in order to become Israel.

(CLV) Jn 8:39
They answered and say to Him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus answered them, "If you are children of Abraham, did you ever do the works of Abraham?

(CLV) Jn 8:42
Jesus, then, said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For out of God I came forth and am arriving. For neither have I come of Myself, but He commissions Me.

(CLV) Jn 8:44
You/ are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it.


(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the law.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


Yahshua claimed that these blood descendants of Abraham were of Satan; because they didn't do the works of Abraham; and that they didn't love him. Yahshua said if you love him; you keep his precepts. His precepts are his fathers precepts. So you see, the children who are not of Satan, do the works of Abraham and keep the precepts.


(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

From Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

My comment was directed here:
Again, Paul isn't going to disagree with YHWH and Yahshua. YHWH clearly says that his covenant is with Israel.
You then support this statement with John 8, where He speaks of Abraham, not Israel. Sorry for the scrutiny, it's what I do, just to keep you on your good foot.

 

[HARK!]

Both the Israelites and Gentiles are branches of the same olive tree. The olive tree is the household of God (the people of God). The root of the olive tree is Jesus Christ.

Pagans are not rooted in Yahshua. The covenant is with Israel, not with both Israel and Pagans, not both Jews and Pagans. There is no Pharisaic Jew nor Greek Pagan. There is only Israel. All ore one in YHWH through Yahshua.


(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I don't want to blot Paul out of the book because he can sometimes be difficult to understand.

YHWH clearly made his covenant with Israel. We have two witnesses. Surely Paul isn't contradicting Jeremiah's testimony; so what do you think that Paul is trying to tell us here?

I don't find Paul that hard to understand. Paul is not contradicting YHWH by saying not all Israel is Israel, but in Isaac shall your seed be. He is just refining, even as YHWH refined his choices. He called Israel a nation of priests. That didn't last long. That calling became Levi. Many are called, few are chosen. He is a refining fire. Am I contradicting Hosea.
Hosea 4:6. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Come on, Man! That's a hard saying.

 

[HARK!]

No, the majority of the pagans aka non-Israelites did not enter into God's

A strawman argument won't help your case. A mixed multitude left Egypt with Moses. That mixed multitude entered covenant at Sinai.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I didn't speak against that. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I did.

I really don't want this to turn into a prophecy debate thread, so If you have an explanation please try to briefly keep it on point.

Thank you.

Who else wants to relate the new covenant to who is Israel? Yes or No question is my assumption of your prophetic view correct? By looking at prophecy we can see that spiritual Israel is those who have accepted the new covenant and that national Israel exists and has a destiny.

I agree there was hope for a Gentiole-if they became a Jew! But a gentile as a gentile as Paul said had no hope and was without God in this world. All gentiles were pagans!

No Jew ever made it to to Abraham's bosom without having faith. The Bible teaches Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. When Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom we see a multitude in there in either of two places, comfort or fire. In Rev 5 we see a multitude in heaven singing to the lamb has been worthy to take the scrolls and open the seals proclaiming that they have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. Now this shows redemption was only by the blood of Jesus from Adam to the end. And they made it from every tribe, tongue kindred and nation. So the law was a prophetic device and the blood of animals had no effect apart from faith in God.

 

[Minister Monardo]

A strawman argument won't help your case. A mixed multitude left Egypt with Moses. That mixed multitude entered covenant at Sinai.

At least, those who didn't run away! LOL. Yet, none are really mentioned other than Caleb the Kenizzite and his clan, the ancestors of David. As to Numbers 15:15, you can deny it, but this a go to verse for you, so I'd like to look at the context.
1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, When ye are come into the land of your habitation, which I give to you, 3 and thou wilt offer whole-burnt-offerings to the Lord, a whole-burnt-offering or a meat-offering to perform a vow, or a free-will offering, or to offer in your feasts a sacrifice of sweet savour to the Lord, whether of the herd or the flock: 4t hen he that offers his gift to the Lord shall bring a meat-offering of fine flour, a tenth part of an ephah mingled with oil, even with the fourth part of a hin. 5 And for a drink-offering ye shall offer the fourth part of a hin on the whole-burnt-offering, or on the meat-offering: for every lamb thou shalt offer so much, as a sacrifice, a smell of sweet savour to the Lord. 6 And for a ram, when ye offer it as a whole-burnt-offering or as a sacrifice, thou shalt prepare as a meat-offering two tenths of fine flour mingled with oil, the third part of a hin. 7 And ye shall offer for a smell of sweet savour to the Lord wine for a drink-offering, the third part of a hin. 8 And if ye sacrifice a bullock from the herd for a whole-burnt-offering or for a sacrifice, to perform a vow or a peace-offering to the Lord, 9 then the worshipper shall offer upon the calf a meat-offering, three tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, even the half of a hin. 10 And wine for a drink-offering the half of a hin, a sacrifice for a smell of sweet savour to the Lord.11 Thus shalt thou do to one calf or to one ram, or to one lamb of the sheep or kid of the goats. 12 According to the number of what ye shall offer, so shall ye do to each one, according to their number. 13 Every native of the country shall do thus to offer such things as sacrifices for a smell of sweet savour to the Lord.14 And if there should be a stranger among you in your land, or one who should be born to you among your generations, and he will offer a sacrifice, a smell of sweet savour to the Lord—as ye do, so the whole congregation shall offer to the Lord. 15 There shall be one law for you and for the strangers abiding among you, a perpetual law for your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord. 16 There shall be one law and one ordinance for you, and for the stranger that abides among you.
So the context is offering animal sacrifices. You wouldn't want strangers sacrificing after their own tradition. This is spilling blood! The particulars of YHWH's sacrifices was that the land would not be defiled by the blood. It would be counter intuitive to let strangers shed blood any other way. Holiness of the land was at stake. Not likely to make pagans righteous before YHWH.
As with the 4 rules for the pagans turned Christians. Those rules kept them from being an abomination, but their righteousness was by faith in the name of Yeshua.

 

[HARK!]

The apostles released me from the burden of the law of Moses and their words weigh more to me than yours do.

Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear The Law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey The Law who will be declared righteous.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear The Law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey The Law who will be declared righteous.

To whom did he address this comment?

 

[HARK!]

My comment was directed here:
Again, Paul isn't going to disagree with YHWH and Yahshua. YHWH clearly says that his covenant is with Israel.
You then support this statement with John 8, where He speaks of Abraham, not Israel. Sorry for the scrutiny, it's what I do, just to keep you on your good foot.

Those of Israel are of Abraham; but I'm sure you know this. Most of the time I feel like I'm I feel like I'm arguing the fine points with the choir, when I address your posts.

 

[HARK!]

To whom did he address this comment?

There is no partiality with YHWH.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Those of Israel are of Abraham; but I'm sure you know this. Most of the time I feel like I'm I feel like I'm arguing the fine points with the choir, when I address your posts.

Yes, I know. But this is a fine point, with a very good reason.
Romans 9:6, 7. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I posted this once before earlier today, you may not have seen it yet, so here it is again. The promise to Abraham was a fine point. Isaac fulfills the promise. Now look at Moriah for one of the most important prophecies in Genesis.

 

[Jan001]

Pagans are not rooted in Yahshua. The covenant is with Israel, not with both Israel and Pagans, not both Jews and Pagans. There is no Pharisaic Jew nor Greek Pagan. There is only Israel. All ore one in YHWH through Yahshua.


(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

Abraham was a Gentile when he was called and his faith was reckoned as righteousness.

 

[BobRyan]

When God 'divorced' Israel they became "gentiles", until they were reconciled back to him. Paul uses the term Gentile for both Israelites and non-Israelites. You have to study closely to determine which is which. The term itself means: Gentile (as non Israelite); nations (the); tribes (the).

In Hebrews 8:6-12 and Jer 31:31-34 The New Covenant is made "With Israel" and as you point out (possibly) that applies to both physical Jews and physical gentiles - ie "believers".

 

[BobRyan]

Abraham was a Gentile when he was called and his faith was reckoned as righteousness.

True. And he became the "father of the faithful" Romans 4. Both of believing gentiles and Jews.

The New Covenant is for "Israel" not physical Jews or gentiles as the definition - but as "believers" as the definition both for Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-13 when it comes to the "New Covenant"

 

[BobRyan]

How is it you use these verses from John 8 to support Yeshua and His covenant with Israel.
All I see mentioned is Abraham, as does Paul.
Galatians 3:29. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Which Paul says is Israel in Romans 9.

Rom
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”