Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Shrewd Manager]

That's a great insight.
Could you expand on the "equity" idea? I'm not totally connecting with the thought there.
How is grace "equity"?

Yes, equity concerns itself with good faith, trust, conscience. So the obligations might be placed as high as to put someone else's interests above your own, for example if you're a trustee of a will, a fiduciary, taking care of someone else's property.

Historically they say the equitable jurisdiction arose in medieval times from petitions to the Lord Chancellor in for mercy by ppl with 'special circumstances' making the strict application of the legal rule unfair in their individual cases. So it was like a royal prerogative to extend grace and mercy, and developed an entire jurisprudence of its own. Most courts now exercise both law and equity jurisdictions. I'm not sure of how this compares with ecclesiastical courts.

While there were petitions for mercy in Roman times, I don't believe it was anything but ad hoc and discretionary.

I think the power of Damnationism lies in the idea that it can't be questioned.
That somehow the questions equate to disbelief. It's a package deal. Bundled with grace.

I tend to agree, there's a lot of earthly pride wrapped up in it, as salvation is really an effort of the individual's will. Lol it has to be, cause who could really deep down trust a God who's frying their uncle?

 

[FineLinen]

That would be funny if it were true.

But it is true in the world of "you must choose" or suffer the consequences.

The Saviour of all mankind is NOT a potential Saviour sitting on His life guard tower. HE saves all, the especially and the rest of drowning mankind. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe, He IS the Saviour of ALL mankind!

 

[JacksBratt]

Which is to say that for most of the people who have ever lived our Lord's sacrifice accomplished precisely nothing. This is the "Poor God..." doctrine: "Poor God, He did so want to save everyone, but He just couldn't.". I find it apalling.

Actually, that places the failure on the wrong person.

Christ's work was sufficient to save every human that ever lived... It is not "Poor God".. He could and did provide enough to save everyone..

He is just saddened that so many don't believe it and don't accept it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But it is true in the world of "you must choose" or suffer the consequences.

The Saviour of all mankind is NOT a potential Saviour sitting on His life guard tower. HE saves all, the especially and the rest of drowning mankind. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe, He IS the Saviour of ALL mankind!

Time for the lifeguard meme F.L.? (I love that one!)

 

[JacksBratt]

Okay. Now apply that to your view of those you claim are rejecting salvation.
That's the point here.

Apply what?... You have snipped more than half of my post. What are you getting at.. The part you snipped is an answer to what you are asking.

 

[JacksBratt]

But it is true in the world of "you must choose" or suffer the consequences.

The Saviour of all mankind is NOT a potential Saviour sitting on His life guard tower. HE saves all, the especially and the rest of drowning mankind. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe, He IS the Saviour of ALL mankind!

That's right... "you must choose"...

That's right, "God is not a savior sitting on His Life Guard tower". He got down and was crucified.. for you.

Also.. in your false analogy cartoon... He would be down there reaching for anyone drowning who was asking to be helped....

And.. those face down would have been those who slapped His hand away and said "NOPE.. I can do this on my own"

Your cartoon is an apostasy. As a Christian.. you should know better.

 

[FineLinen]

That's right... "you must choose"...

That's right, "God is not a savior sitting on His Life Guard tower". He got down and was crucified.. for you.

Also.. in your false analogy cartoon... He would be down there reaching for anyone drowning who was asking to be helped....

And.. those face down would have been those who slapped His hand away and said "NOPE.. I can do this on my own"

Your cartoon is an apostasy. As a Christian.. you should know better.

The foundation for discipleship =

"You DID NOT choose Me, I chose you"

As a young lad nearly 63 years ago I was drowning, I could not even cry out save me, the water was filling my lungs as I sank.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's where you and I differ....

I have no worries about "burning in hell" because I am saved.

I have no worries about all that life throws at me because I know that God has said that he won't give me anything in my life that I have not got sufficient devices to handle.

I have no worries about the end because I know I am going to be with Him.

I have trials and difficulties in my life.. but I have Christ..

I only pray for those that are foolish or arrogant enough to deny Him.

How does that make us different?

 

[Saint Steven]

Apply what?... You have snipped more than half of my post. What are you getting at.. The part you snipped is an answer to what you are asking.

Here's what you said. (half of it anyway) - lol
You claim (by example) that everyone that needs to be saved actually wants it.
I say: "Okay. Now apply that to your view of those you claim are rejecting salvation.
That's the point here."

JacksBratt said: ↑
That would be funny if it were true. However, I've never ever heard of a drowning person that wasn't shouting "save me, save me.. help help". If not by words.. by actions and they will actually drown the person who is offering help.. in efforts to get to safety.

So... nope.. not true.

 

[JacksBratt]

How does that make us different?

Due to the simple fact that you said that your life was much less stressful now that you ignore the fact that there is eternal damnation... Well.. I never had any of that stress... even though I have full knowledge of the fact that there will be eternal separation from God for some.

 

[FineLinen]

Due to the simple fact that you said that your life was much less stressful now that you ignore the fact that there is eternal damnation... Well.. I never had any of that stress... even though I have full knowledge of the fact that there will be eternal separation from God for some.

Search = "eternal damnation"

Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query & try again.

Search = "eternal separation"

Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query & try again.

NOTHING!

1. Not death.
   
   
2. Not life.
   
   
3. Not angels.
   
   
4. Not powers.
   
   
5. Not the present/ not the future.
   
   
6. No power.

ouden= NOTHING

 

[JacksBratt]

Here's what you said. (half of it anyway) - lol
You claim (by example) that everyone that needs to be saved actually wants it.

No, I said that everyone drowning.. wants to be saved.. so the cartoon is not valid.

In another post I stated that Chris is not in the life guard tower looking down.. He is at the pools edge reaching for all who want His help... Some, however will slap His hand away and state that they can do it on their own... so sad.

Not every human wants to be in fellowship with God, or believe in Him, or believe that they need a savior.. the list goes on..

It may be true that their are no atheists in a fox hole.. but.. no.. not all people who need salvation want it.

I say: "Okay. Now apply that to your view of those you claim are rejecting salvation.
That's the point here."

Well, I hope I cleared up the confusion in your questioning.

 

[JacksBratt]

Search = "eternal damnation"

Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query & try again.

Search = "eternal separation"

Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query & try again.

What is with all this "Search = XXXX"?

I don't get it..

Search = nonsense....

 

[JacksBratt]

Nobody has attempted to answer my question.....

If there is no eternal separation from God. No damnation. No eternal death.. No hell.. for those that don't accept Christ...

What are we all doing then? Why the missionaries?... Why the evangelical churches?.. Why the testimonies?.. Why the witnessing to the lost? Why pray for your lost family members living in sin? Why? Why? Why?


They're just going to be with us in heaven anyway.... According to your theory.

 

[FineLinen]

What is with all this "Search = XXXX"?

I don't get it..

Search = nonsense....

Dear Bratt: you are using terms that are not Biblical!

There is simply zero words in koine for "damnation", NONE.

Perhaps when you are instructed to try again in your query you can try judgement? After that you may want to define aidios and aionios.

There is no animal in Father's Barnyard called aidios ktisis.

 

[FineLinen]

Nobody has attempted to answer my question.....

If there is no eternal separation from God. No damnation. No eternal death.. No hell.. for those that don't accept Christ...

What are we all doing then? Why the missionaries?... Why the evangelical churches?.. Why the testimonies?.. Why the witnessing to the lost? Why pray for your lost family members living in sin? Why? Why? Why?


They're just going to be with us in heaven anyway.... According to your theory.

I have no idea what drew you to the Lord of salvation. For me, nearly 63 years ago, it was a deep hole nothing could fill in this world.

Prayer begins in God. As we become joined to Him in at-one-ment we utter deep longings in union with Him. The mission field is where we dwell & where we speak of His glorious work of restoration in the Saviour of the all.

 

[JacksBratt]

Dear Bratt: you are using terms that are not Biblical!

There is simply zero words in koine for "damnation", NONE.

Perhaps when you are instructed to try again in your query you can try judgement? After that you may want to define aidios and aionios.

There is no animal in Father's Barnyard called aidios ktisis.

Neither is "Rapture" or "Trinity".. or a lot of words that we use.. That is because it is a translation...

 

[JacksBratt]

I have no idea what drew you to the Lord of salvation. For me, nearly 63 years ago, it was a deep hole nothing could fill in this world.

This is usually what draws us to God.. an emptiness that we cannot fill without Him. And, a heart that wants to do as He did..

Prayer begins in God. As we become joined to Him in at-one-ment we utter deep longings in union with Him. The mission field is where we dwell & where we speak of His glorious work of restoration in the Saviour of the all.

For what purpose? So you can feel good about yourself? All the people are going to heaven anyway... whats the Sense?


You're still... not answering the question....


What about little Johnny stealing cars and taking them for joy rides.. selling beer to teenagers.... breaking in to houses for fun, just a little rip... living life the way he wants... What does he have to worry.. he's going to heaven anyway..

OR...

Fred... Shyster.... gives you a quote on the new deck you want.. shows up and put up the frame.. asks for 1/2 the money.. you never see him again.... no worries.. he's going to heaven some day.

OR

Teddy.. has a used car lot.. sells cars with broken parts, worn out engines... fake safety checks.. warranted till you drive them off the lot...

Bob.. Doesn't like his neighbor... so.. he takes him fishing and drowns the guy... dumps his body in the lake... Still..........going to heaven.




SO..... again.... what ... is the point of any of this that we do? Why preach, Why witness, why evangelize? Why do missions?

All the people are going to heaven anyway.. you too...... so... why?

 

[FineLinen]

This is usually what draws us to God.. an emptiness that we cannot fill without Him. And, a heart that wants to do as He did..



For what purpose? So you can feel good about yourself? All the people are going to heaven anyway... whats the Sense?


You're still... not answering the question....


What about little Johnny stealing cars and taking them for joy rides.. selling beer to teenagers.... breaking in to houses for fun, just a little rip... living life the way he wants... What does he have to worry.. he's going to heaven anyway..

OR...

Fred... Shyster.... gives you a quote on the new deck you want.. shows up and put up the frame.. asks for 1/2 the money.. you never see him again.... no worries.. he's going to heaven some day.

OR

Teddy.. has a used car lot.. sells cars with broken parts, worn out engines... fake safety checks.. warranted till you drive them off the lot...

Bob.. Doesn't like his neighbor... so.. he takes him fishing and drowns the guy... dumps his body in the lake... Still..........going to heaven.




SO..... again.... what ... is the point of any of this that we do? Why preach, Why witness, why evangelize? Why do missions?

All the people are going to heaven anyway.. you too...... so... why?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Bratt: The great and mighty purposes of the Lord go far beyond what any of us are capable of imagining. It is not just a matter of going to heaven, but of coming Home to the One from whom we have become estranged as a result of being born into sin as a child of Adam 1.

His Kingdom is many faceted & many dimensioned.

In My Father's House are many dwelling places..

 

[Der Alte]

Dear Bratt: you are using terms that are not Biblical!
There is simply zero words in koine for "damnation", NONE.
Perhaps when you are instructed to try again in your query you can try judgement? After that you may want to define aidios and aionios.
There is no animal in Father's Barnyard called aidios ktisis.

I have provided the definition of "aidios" and "aionios" multiple times but UR-ites do not want to know the correct definition.They want the false definition given by false UR teachers.
Also I have provided the correct definition of "aionios kolasis" multiple times but again UR-ites don't want the correct definition, they want the false definition from their UR biased writers.
Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios” and “αιδιος/aidios” as synonyms, see Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17, below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
___________
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
___________
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf​

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.