The Demise of Evolution

[Kylie]

Logically, if it is big bang, it should be at a central point with the universe expanding in all directions from it like ripples in a pond. But if there is no centre, and it is expanding, then it must be expanding from a particular point forward away direct in front and angular away at each edge; sort of like shining a torch where the light from it shines straight ahead and at an angle, but not sideways or rear. So the big bang might be more like firing a blunderbuss where the shot spreads out forward from the flared barrel.

Again, you are assuming that it is just like the explosions you are used to. There's no evidence for that, and no evidence for a central point to the universe.

But the question remains, what set it off?

Here is how I see it according to the popular theory:
First there was nothing,
Then there was this great mass of energy appear out of nowhere.
Then the great "blunderbuss" was loaded and fired.
The universe expands, flaring out forward from that point as a great mass of hot gases.
Somehow, these gases start spinning around, forming stars and planets.
One of these is our sun, and somehow, our world is at the exact position where plant, animal, sea and human life can exist.
On our world is a pool of primordial soup, and a bolt of lightning hits it and life magically appears as a small microbe that gradually turns into a fish, then crawls out of the pool and turns into a land animal, and so on.

A universe from nothing by Lawrence Krauss discusses exactly this question. I recommend you read it. https://www.amazon.com.au/Universe-Nothing-Lawrence-M-Krauss/dp/1451624468

 

[Subduction Zone]

What do you think the Big Bang was that could have provided the enormous forces to spread out a whole universe, still expanding at stupendous speed? It must have happened in the centre of the universe, which is too far away for any of us to see, even through the Hubble telescope. If it wasn't an explosion, then what was it? Got any ideas? All sounds like science fantasy to me.

This is a hard idea to understand, but it was not an explosion. It was a stretching of space itself. Complex problems often seem to be wrong to those that will not let themselves learn the basics of the topic.

We don't know exactly how new stars are born, because no one has ever seen it happen, even through the Hubble Telescope. The only theory of it exists in a computer simulation to try and show how it might have happened. But it is just a guess by view an actual supernova and reversing the process in the computer in the hope that it might show how the star was born. But without actual observation, it remains a simple guess. We can go to a car factory and see how they are made, and so we can know the difference. But we can't go out into the universe and observe a star being born.

Why do you think that we need to see things? No one has seen an orbit of Pluto yet we can calculate it extremely accurately. And that is a relatively rapidly occurring event. We can see star formation by observing the current state of many stars that are currently forming. Complaining that one cannot see an event that takes millions of years has no merit.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Again, you are assuming that it is just like the explosions you are used to. There's no evidence for that, and no evidence for a central point to the universe.



A universe from nothing by Lawrence Krauss discusses exactly this question. I recommend you read it. https://www.amazon.com.au/Universe-Nothing-Lawrence-M-Krauss/dp/1451624468

Or if one is lazy one can watch the hour long video that he made. Quite a bit is cut out, but it still gives a good idea of what is in the book. I saw the video and then bought the book. I would also recommend the book if one is serious. The points in the video are sometimes made too quickly for lay people to grasp.

 

[roman2819]

Here are the choices as I see them, based on nothing but the thoughts that go through my (alleged) mind and assumes the existence go G-d:
1. At the time of the Big Bang G-d created a universe containing all the matter and energy that would result in the universe and in life as we know it today. Then He played golf for 13.5 billion years. No further interference was required;
2. G-d created the universe. He guides its development as He deems necessary; or
3. G-d is a micromanager overseeing everything that happens in the universe.

Personally, I hope that it’s number 2, which still allows for free will and still allows us to look to a higher power the whom we can appeal.

Agreed that (2) is the closest. I will expand on as "He deems necessary" by adding thar God acts to bring the universe including humanity to the ending that He wants - this is the bigger scheme of things. On a personal level to Christians, G-d can intervene in people's life at certain junctures.

 

[roman2819]

If 2 were correct, then we would see every now and then things that violate the laws of the universe as God steps in to take action to make sure that things unfold the way he wants them too.

To explain further on post #1504:

God is moving humanity and universe towards the end He wants but not the way you expect. You see God in a myopic and microscopic way, that He ought to have stopped the wars and starvation yesterday, but He doesn't behave the way you want (by the way many christians and non-believers share your view too).

God endows free will on humans to live, to build, to hate, to destroy. He watch as we build skyscapers and technology. He watches as 60 milion people persished in World War 2 (un-thinkable? but it happened. Why? Read on). He watch as people live in happiness and sadness.

God allows free will in order to allow humanity to see ourselves as we are, it is the only way. So that in the end when He judge, people look back and see for themselves that they are accountable for their own actions. When we see God, believers will know that they were right to believe He exists (and they will understand why He allows humanity free will to carry on). Non-believers will realize that they harden their hearts by refusing to believe the overwhelming evidences of lifeforms and creation around us (and other evidences as well).

God is moving to bring the ending He wants but you don't see it due to your personal reasons. One of the things HE did is to sent Jesus to atone for sins, and create the church which has influenced the course of human history in the past 2000 years. He works in believers' lives (too much to explain and you won't understand if Jesus us not your saviour)

And if 3 were correct, then there's no reason to expect to find any consistent laws of the universe at all if God is responsible for every little thing. Number 3 would also tend to eliminate any chance of us having free will.

God doesn't take away people's free will and does not micromanage them. He is far larger than that. It is strange when I observe people thinking that God is moving all the pieces or pressing buttons to move us around. Why do people put the Creator and Master of the Universe in a box? Or think of Him as an answering machine?? Try to have a larger view of God. Its also best to recognize our own mortality and limitation, that we live for one generation, then we are gone phsically from earth. Christians will go to a better place whether you believe it or not

 

[Bungle_Bear]

To explain further on post #1504:

God is moving humanity and universe towards the end He wants but not the way you expect. You see God in a myopic and microscopic way, that He ought to have stopped the wars and starvation yesterday, but He doesn't behave the way you want (by the way many christians and non-believers share your view too).

God endows free will on humans to live, to build, to hate, to destroy. He watch as we build skyscapers and technology. He watches as 60 milion people persished in World War 2 (un-thinkable? but it happened. Why? Read on). He watch as people live in happiness and sadness.

God allows free will in order to alow humanity to see ourselves as we are, it is the only way. So that in the end when He judge, people look back and see for themselves that they are accountable for their own actions. When we see God, believers will know that they were right to believe He exists (and they will understand why HE allows humanity free will to carry on). Non-believers will realize that they harden their hearts by refusing to believe the overwhelming evidences of lifeforms and creation around us (and other evidences as well).

God is moving to bring the ending He wants but you don't see it due to your personal reasons. One of the things HE did is to sent Jesus to atone for sins, and create the church which has influenced the course of human history in the past 2000 years. He works in believers' lives (too much to explain and you won't understand if Jesus us not your saviour)




God doesn't take away people's free will and does not micromanage them. He is far larger than that. It is strange when I observe people thinking that GOd is moving all the pieces or pressing buttons to move us around. Why do people put the Creator and Master of the Universe in a box? Or think of Him as an answering machine?? Try tio recognize our own mortality and limitation, live for one generation and we are gone phsically from earth. Christians will go to a better place whether you believe it or not

Lol. God doesn't micromanage, he just manages everything at a micro level. Why do so many Christians resort to this form of Orwellian newspeak?

 

[Kylie]

To explain further on post #1504:

God is moving humanity and universe towards the end He wants but not the way you expect. You see God in a myopic and microscopic way, that He ought to have stopped the wars and starvation yesterday, but He doesn't behave the way you want (by the way many christians and non-believers share your view too).

God endows free will on humans to live, to build, to hate, to destroy. He watch as we build skyscapers and technology. He watches as 60 milion people persished in World War 2 (un-thinkable? but it happened. Why? Read on). He watch as people live in happiness and sadness.

God allows free will in order to allow humanity to see ourselves as we are, it is the only way. So that in the end when He judge, people look back and see for themselves that they are accountable for their own actions. When we see God, believers will know that they were right to believe He exists (and they will understand why He allows humanity free will to carry on). Non-believers will realize that they harden their hearts by refusing to believe the overwhelming evidences of lifeforms and creation around us (and other evidences as well).

God is moving to bring the ending He wants but you don't see it due to your personal reasons. One of the things HE did is to sent Jesus to atone for sins, and create the church which has influenced the course of human history in the past 2000 years. He works in believers' lives (too much to explain and you won't understand if Jesus us not your saviour)




God doesn't take away people's free will and does not micromanage them. He is far larger than that. It is strange when I observe people thinking that God is moving all the pieces or pressing buttons to move us around. Why do people put the Creator and Master of the Universe in a box? Or think of Him as an answering machine?? Try to have a larger view of God. Its also best to recognize our own mortality and limitation, that we live for one generation, then we are gone phsically from earth. Christians will go to a better place whether you believe it or not

Two questions.

If I raised my daughter this way and used this as an excuse for why horrible things happened to her, I'd be called a monster. Why do you think it's okay when God does it?

And would you care to provide evidence to show that your interpretation of the mind of God is correct?

 

[roman2819]

Lol. God doesn't micromanage, he just manages everything at a micro level. Why do so many Christians resort to this form of Orwellian newspeak?

Keep laughing, and if Jesus is not your Saviour on judgement day, you will be crying, probably howling.

But if you are are saved by Jesus, it is ok to have different interpretations about how God work, even if you are wrong about some personal beliefs , such as different views of how creation began etc. I like to think that Catholics are saved too, even though they prayed to Mary for intercession (which is unbiblical) , but if they confess their sins in Jesus, I believe they are saved too.

BUt if you are not saved by Jesus on judgement, you certainly won't LOL.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Keep laughing, and if Jesus is not your Saviour on judgement day, you will be crying, probably howling.

But if you are are saved by Jesus, it is ok to have different interpretations about how God work, even if you are wrong about some personal beliefs , such as different views of how creation began etc. I like to think that Catholics are saved too, even though they prayed to Mary for intercession (which is unbiblical) , but if they confess their sins in Jesus, I believe they are saved too.

BUt if you are not saved by Jesus on judgement, you certainly won't LOL.

Empty threats and implying that God is evil. This is not good theology.

If you understand the Garden of Eden story fully the blame belongs to God. Not only did he make a flawed creation, but the put the downfall of man in easy reach and did not prepare man sufficiently. And then he blames man for his errors. That also is bad theology when read literally.

 

[roman2819]

Two questions.

If I raised my daughter this way and used this as an excuse for why horrible things happened to her, I'd be called a monster. Why do you think it's okay when God does it?

Many people reject God and don't want Him around. So He let them carry on. I didn't say it is ok, but since they don't want Him,what else can HE do? Only possible discourse let them continue so that they look into mirror of judgement and recognize their folly.

And would you care to provide evidence to show that your interpretation of the mind of God is correct?

Would you believe any evidence at all? you don't even believe God exists.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Many people reject God and don't want Him around. So He let them carry on. I didn't say it is ok, but since they don't want Him,what else can HE do? Only possible discourse let them continue so that they look into mirror of judgement and recognize their folly.



Would you believe any evidence at all? you don't even believe God exists.

Loaded language is not wise to use. I don't know of any atheists that "reject God".That makes your entire post a strawman argument.

 

[roman2819]

Empty threats and implying that God is evil. This is not good theology.

It won't be empty threats when non-believers face the "music".

This is not good theology.

Truth is not always music to the ears.

If you understand the Garden of Eden story fully the blame belongs to God. Not only did he make a flawed creation, but the put the downfall of man in easy reach and did not prepare man sufficiently. And then he blames man for his errors. That also is bad theology when read literally.

Garden of Eden is more than just a story of 2 person walking around, there is more that happened but it is not said. They might not have sineed as easily as the words portray, but the end result is still sin and disobedience.

@Kylie said Adam and Eve seemed fine until they ate the apple. My question to both of you is: Would you rather be programmed in what you woud think and act, without free will?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Keep laughing, and if Jesus is not your Saviour on judgement day, you will be crying, probably howling.

But if you are are saved by Jesus, it is ok to have different interpretations about how God work, even if you are wrong about some personal beliefs , such as different views of how creation began etc. I like to think that Catholics are saved too, even though they prayed to Mary for intercession (which is unbiblical) , but if they confess their sins in Jesus, I believe they are saved too.

BUt if you are not saved by Jesus on judgement, you certainly won't LOL.

Threats and preaching. Is that all you have left? It's not convincing in the least.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It won't be empty threats when non-believers face the "music".



Truth is not always music to the ears.



Garden of Eden is more than just a story of 2 person walking around, there is more that happened but it is not said. They might not have sineed as easily as the words portray, but the end result is still sin and disobedience.

@Kylie said Adam and Eve seemed fine until they ate the apple. My question to both of you is: Would you rather be programmed in what you woud think and act, without free will?

You keep claiming that not only is your God unjust, you also claim that he is evil That is why your theology fails. Tell me how could a sane person worship your version of God? He has to threaten people according to you. He has to lie according to you. He is unjust according to you.

"Truth" or not your version of God appears to be rather blasphemous to say the least.

 

[Kylie]

Keep laughing, and if Jesus is not your Saviour on judgement day, you will be crying, probably howling.

But if you are are saved by Jesus, it is ok to have different interpretations about how God work, even if you are wrong about some personal beliefs , such as different views of how creation began etc. I like to think that Catholics are saved too, even though they prayed to Mary for intercession (which is unbiblical) , but if they confess their sins in Jesus, I believe they are saved too.

BUt if you are not saved by Jesus on judgement, you certainly won't LOL.

Nice way to use threats of eternal damnation to get people onto your side.

 

[Kylie]

Many people reject God and don't want Him around. So He let them carry on. I didn't say it is ok, but since they don't want Him,what else can HE do? Only possible discourse let them continue so that they look into mirror of judgement and recognize their folly.

This doesn't actually answer my question.

Would you believe any evidence at all? you don't even believe God exists.

If the evidence can be tested and the testing shows that it corresponds with reality, yes, of course.

I am after the truth, I'm not just going to believe what I want to believe.

 

[roman2819]

Empty threats and implying that God is evil. This is not good theology.

If you understand the Garden of Eden story fully the blame belongs to God. Not only did he make a flawed creation, but the put the downfall of man in easy reach and did not prepare man sufficiently. And then he blames man for his errors. That also is bad theology when read literally.

What is good theology?

Confucianism: It teaches strong family values and individual responsibilities. Strong families create strong country. It is a great teaching for way of living on earth, but it does not lead to eternal salvation.

Buddhism: It teaches people to do good with rught speechm right action to stop the wheek of karma, and if the wheel stops for someone, then he will not be reborn into this world of suffering, but instead, be a higher being. The outward manifestation of right speechand action are good but the foundation of Buddhism (karma and rebirth) has no proof.

So why does buddhism appeal to many in Asia and some in the west. One reason is tradition, like many americans are born into christian homes. The other appeal is people like to feel that they can become a better person on their own effort , even though many Buddhists have no proof of reborn into a higher being. Third: It practise flexibility, it can be all thigs to different religions and beliefs. Do these add up to good theology? Not to me, but it probably look good to many who don't believe in Jesus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What is good theology?

Confucianism: It teaches strong family values and individual responsibilities. Strong families create strong country. It is a great teaching for way of living on earth, but it does not lead to eternal salvation.

Buddhism: It teaches people to do good with rught speechm right action to stop the wheek of karma, and if the wheel stops for someone, then he will not be reborn into this world of suffering, but instead, be a higher being. The outward manifestation of right speechand action are good but the foundation of Buddhism (karma and rebirth) has no proof.

So why does buddhism appeal to many in Asia and some in the west. One reason is tradition, like many americans are born into christian homes. The other appeal is people like to feel that they can become a better person on their own effort , even though many Buddhists have no proof of reborn into a higher being. Third: It practise flexibility, it can be all thigs to different religions and beliefs. Do these add up to good theology? Not to me, but it probably look good to many who don't believe in Jesus.

Not constantly contradicting oneself is a good starting point.

By the way, "no proof" is your problem too. Why would you complain about those other religions not having any proof while you have none either? This is why understanding what is and what is not evidence can be so helpful. All you have is confirmation bias, the exact same "proof" that those religions have.

 

[Job 33:6]

@roman2819

Did you get a chance to read posts 1465 and 1475?

 

[pitabread]

Keep laughing, and if Jesus is not your Saviour on judgement day, you will be crying, probably howling.

And here come the threats...