Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Saint Steven]

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

 

[martymonster]

Actually it doesn't.. read it again.

Nice explanation. I didn't think you would be able to.

 

[Der Alte]

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

One guy, Jerome, supposedly said something so we should throw out our Bibles? Where can we find this Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: so we can verify Nestle said what is attributed to him?
Here is a link to the Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: Good luck finding the quote the book is written in German.
Full text of "Einführung in das griechische Neue Testament [microform]"

 

[martymonster]

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

Yeah, and they are still doing this today. Case in point, the following passage.

Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

If you contrast these two verses, both are correct. Both translations are valid, but the CLV one put across the meaning with so much more clarity. You could easily read the KJV of this, and not really be any the wiser. The translation of the CLV just make so much more sense.

 

[Deade]

Said by one who loves God and actually did seek God out..

Speak to Richard Dawkins or any rabid atheist... You will find that many people don't want anything to do with God or salvation.. Some even stating that "Hell is where all the fun people will be"..

Maybe rethink that....

Rom. 6:23: The wages of sin is death. Not everlasting life (fun place) in the fire. Satan is still whispering in your ear "Thou shall not surely die!" Snuffsville!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Hard working? He clearly tells them why.

“And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These people didn’t follow Jesus’ teachings. To me this sounds like false professors like many televangelists who do fake healings and fake exorcisms for the sole purpose of making money.

And what's the core of Jesus' teachings? The Shema plus love thy neighbour. So these believers are more likely ppl whose first priority was to save their own backsides from eternal damnation. Pretty hard to just do things from a sincere motive when hemmed in by terror.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mt 23:15)

He's condemning the damnationist, on the principle that 'as ye judge, so shall ye be judged'. You want to see God as heartless and hypocritical, find out how much divine mercy that buys you in the Day.

 

[martymonster]

He's condemning the damnationist, on the principle that 'as ye judge, so shall ye be judged'. You want to see God as heartless and hypocritical, find out how much divine mercy that buys you in the Day.

Yep, that's exactly what he's saying here, too.

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

Psa 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
Psa 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

 

[Saint Steven]

Furthermore, Lev. 24:8 states that the covenant given to Israel was an "everlasting covenant." Yet, it was conditional and based on Israel's obedience (Ex. 19:5-6). And the inspired writer of the book of Hebrews declares, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He says, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... in that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to VANISH AWAY" (Heb. 8:7 8, 13). Ah, did you notice? The everlasting covenant has been DONE AWAY! What a wonder, that! We are told that the "earth abides forever" (Eccl. 1:4), but Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away..” (Mat. 24:35).

The Lord announced through the prophet Isaiah, "Upon the land of My people shall come up thorns and briers; ye upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city: for the palace shall be forsaken; the populous city shall be deserted; the hill and the watch-tower shall be dens for ever; a joy of wild asses, a pasture for flocks; UNTIL the Spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the WILDERNESS BECOME a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest" (Isa. 32:13-15). Verse 15 limits the use of the word in verse 14, for the desolations of the land are "for ever" only UNTIL the Spirit is poured out from on high bringing glorious RESTORATION!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Shrewd, you and I don't differ in opinion that often. However, I must say that in this case, we do.

Jesus does not smash ppl who fail to do any "works".. Our salvation is free. Nothing we do can earn it..

The works we do are out of our faith and love for our savior... our rewards in heaven are for this.. Salvation is not a reward for anything we do.. It is a free gift for believing in Christ.

I don't disagree with any of the above JB. We were discussing Matt 25:46 and its apparent warning that the 'goats', being believers who fail to do the stipulated works (eg helping the poor - the Catholics interpret these as 'corporal works'), are condemned to eternal damnation.

So you, being Protestant after Luther, also need to contend with the apparent literal interpretation of that passage, which would indicate on its face that faith without works is doomed.

The bigger picture though, is the resounding question 'Who do you say that God is?' Is He the God who delights in mercy, whose grace abounds over sin, who is seen in the Son, and in the teachings of the Spirit? Who is love - patient, kind, gentle, forbearing, longsuffering etc.? Or does His wrath know no bounds? Is He callous, heartless, sadistic, hypocritical, a failure, a loser against the will of fallen man and the devil?

I hope you'll do some introspection my friend, and ask whether love could ever abide eternal damnation, especially when most of those condemned were less than capable of making the right choice, enslaved by sin and deceived by the devil and the sorceries of the harlot.

And look carefully at the Bible translations for the word 'hell' and related concepts. Hades, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are not the same things. Jesus has the keys to death and Hades, and he uses them to release the dead (Rev 20:13-15). He warns believers they could go to Gehenna if we call (or think in our hearts) our brother to be a fool (Mt 5:22). Are you guilty? I certainly need to be purged of that kind of anger and pride.

Just as all died in Adam, all were made alive in Christ. All are justified, but many don't know it yet, so they can't embark on the participatory process of sanctification - growing in faith and love etc. But who is fully purified by the time he dies? He who says he's without sin is a liar. That's our hope, for all creation to be cleansed and healed. The first last and the last first.

'And the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations' (Rev 22:2b).

So don't worry. The Gospel is UNCONDITIONAL good news, lol is there any other kind? So like my tagline below says (shout out to Mrs F.L. btw), everyone will come to Christ, once the veils are removed. That's the great victory of God - to have His enemies fall to their knees in total submissive worship crying 'Abba - Father, you have done it!' Hence the apocalipsis - REVELATION of the truth.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Psa 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

They're on point, I do believe. However:

froward
/ˈfrəʊəd/

adjective
ARCHAIC

1. (of a person) difficult to deal with; contrary.

Forgive me Father!

 

[Saint Steven]

The opposition seems to think they have won some sort of victory by chasing us off of this other topic.

Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The opposition seems to think they have won some sort of victory by chasing us off of this other topic.

Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

That thread seemed to have wound down.

 

[martymonster]

The opposition seems to think they have won some sort of victory by chasing us off of this other topic.

Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

 

[JacksBratt]

Hell is still "hell", if you will. And salvation is in the here and now to make even this life better. We are always accused of what you are saying. But that's not what this is about.

Hell, or whatever you want to call it, is corrective and restorative, but still extremely uncomfortable. Fortunately not forever with no hope of escape. Not a place you want to be for any length of time, but needed before you can proceed.

Well, I disagree..

And.. realistically, salvation is not in the here and now..

I know some solid Christians that are living a life of extreme hardship...while living as strong soldiers for the Lord......

Tell them that salvation is in the here and now and makes life better..

To them.. the only thing keeping them going is the hope of paradise after this life..

I'll say it again.. If you are living a life of bliss with no trials and no hardship... better check your walk with Christ.. the less of a threat that you are to the enemy, and his plan.. the easier your life will be.

 

[JacksBratt]

No scriptural, grammatical or lexical evidence supporting any of the "conclusions" expressed in this agenda motivated writing. The writer of this article has no educational qualifications in Greek. His "conclusions" are his unsupported personal opinions. All of the writers objections can be answered with one word"hyperbole."

For sure...

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, I disagree..

And.. realistically, salvation is not in the here and now..

I know some solid Christians that are living a life of extreme hardship...while living as strong soldiers for the Lord......

Tell them that salvation is in the here and now and makes life better..

To them.. the only thing keeping them going is the hope of paradise after this life..

I'll say it again.. If you are living a life of bliss with no trials and no hardship... better check your walk with Christ.. the less of a threat that you are to the enemy, and his plan.. the easier your life will be.

Of course you would disagree. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum in relation to the doctrines of the final judgments.

And you misunderstand salvation in the here and now as well.

The Apostle tells us that it is by grace that we HAVE BEEN saved. (past tense) Therefore in the here and now. Lots more where that came from if you need more scripture.

And no, that doesn't mean a life of ease. But it sure makes life better. Do you deny that?

There is more than one kind of salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

Rom. 6:23: The wages of sin is death. Not everlasting life (fun place) in the fire. Satan is still whispering in your ear "Thou shall not surely die!" Snuffsville! View attachment 275231

I agree. Satan is the great deciever... He has many thinking that hell is a great place to party for eternity...

Just listen to the lyrics of Billy Joel.."Only the Good Die Young"

They say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun

Sadly deceiving.

 

[JacksBratt]

So these believers are more likely ppl whose first priority was to save their own backsides from eternal damnation.

Yes because it's such a long and arduous process.. that takes so much personal sacrifice and laborious tasks... NOT..

Pretty hard to just do things from a sincere motive when hemmed in by terror.

How are we "hemmed in by terror" again? This only works if the path to paradise is littered with hurdles and tests and labor.. However, the path to paradise is straight and the Lords load is light. There is no works, levels of accomplishments, tasks, tests, duties.. or anything to be saved... Just one thing.. A humble heart to admit the truth.. you are a sinner and need salvation.. .which is totally FREE.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

(Mt 23:15)

He's condemning the damnationist, on the principle that 'as ye judge, so shall ye be judged'. You want to see God as heartless and hypocritical, find out how much divine mercy that buys you in the Day.

No, he's talking to the high priests and their hypocritical methods.

 

[JacksBratt]

Furthermore, Lev. 24:8 states that the covenant given to Israel was an "everlasting covenant." Yet, it was conditional and based on Israel's obedience (Ex. 19:5-6). And the inspired writer of the book of Hebrews declares, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He says, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... in that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to VANISH AWAY" (Heb. 8:7 8, 13). Ah, did you notice? The everlasting covenant has been DONE AWAY! What a wonder, that! We are told that the "earth abides forever" (Eccl. 1:4), but Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away..” (Mat. 24:35).

The Lord announced through the prophet Isaiah, "Upon the land of My people shall come up thorns and briers; ye upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city: for the palace shall be forsaken; the populous city shall be deserted; the hill and the watch-tower shall be dens for ever; a joy of wild asses, a pasture for flocks; UNTIL the Spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the WILDERNESS BECOME a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest" (Isa. 32:13-15). Verse 15 limits the use of the word in verse 14, for the desolations of the land are "for ever" only UNTIL the Spirit is poured out from on high bringing glorious RESTORATION!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Ya, you lost me at "furthermore".

 

[Saint Steven]

Ya, you lost me at "furthermore".

In short, all sorts of things in the Bible are said to be "forever" and "everlasting" that were actually only temporary, or for an age.

The covenant given to Israel was an "everlasting covenant". (Lev. 24:8)
Yet the new covenant replaced the old covenant. (Heb. 8:7, 13)