Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[BNR32FAN]

So, how do you harmonize this seeming contradiction?
Is Jesus the Savior of all, or not Savior at all?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Acknowledge is defined as "openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back)." Thus not by coercion.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

So please, explain to me how it would’ve been better for Judas if he had never been born if he is destined to receive eternal life in heaven.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Except for those horrible heretics who deny it's God's pleasure to torture ppl forever.

I think that many universalists refuse to believe in eternal punishment because they feel like it is wrong to punish someone for all eternity. I’ll admit that at first I thought universalism seemed like a really nice idea, but then I quickly realized that if it is not God’s plan then it cannot be the best idea and I’m confident that God has a reason why He has decided for it to be this way. So I’ll have to trust that God knows better than I do and that I may not have all the variables and information concerning this issue like He does.

 

[Saint Steven]

So please, explain to me how it would’ve been better for Judas if he had never been born if he is destined to receive eternal life in heaven.

That's a better approach. Thanks.
And I wouldn't claim that Judas is going straight to heaven without being first corrected and restored. This is similar to this sobering scripture below, and probably follows a similar level of literary exaggeration.

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

if it is not God’s plan

You seem to be running on a logical fallacy or 2 there. First, you've presumed it's not God's plan, and secondly, you've admitted you don't know the issue like He does.

So why not give Him the glory and have faith (or at least hold out hope) that Jesus will be absolutely successful in his mission of salvation?

 

[Saint Steven]

I think it is a fallacy to claim that anyone doesn't want salvation.
The claim of Damnationists is that those in hell wanted to be there.
This simply CANNOT be.

 

[renniks]

You must be reading the abridged version lol. The last words in my Bible read "And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all" (Rev 22:21). Hard to say that with a straight face if 'the many' are contemporaneously suffering of the hideous torment, no?

Matthew 25:26
I'm talking about Jesus words on the subject, not the last words in the Bible.
And what does John say before his final words in revelations?

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[renniks]

Scripture please?

Matthew 25:26

 

[BNR32FAN]

Dishonest?
You were attempting to nullify one scripture with another. Bible versus Bible.

Was this to claim that NOT every knee will bow, and NOT every tongue confess?
Or just to claim that it would be to none effect? Or that God will only accept it from a select group? (even though it was genuine)

Yes, dishonest. You know full well that nothing I have said can possibly indicate that Jesus is not the Savior at all, that His sacrifice didn’t save anyone.

And no He will not accept it, otherwise everyone who says to Jesus Lord Lord will enter heaven which is exactly what He said would NOT happen.

 

[Deade]

They are only, and were only ever, and are only forever only meant for ever, only here ever, and a only a very temporary time here ever, forever, etc... Temporary programs or constructs meant to only ever serve a very temporary and fleeting kind of existence, etc, that only come back, or were only ever quote/unquote, "alive" before that or will be after that, etc, when they're temporary, temporary purpose or program or constuct is meant to run it's program/existence again, and that is the only time they ever exist, etc, and this is "forever", etc, they spend a great deal of time "dead" or not conscious, or asleep, until these programs are only needed for a very short time again, and other than that, experience no kind of consciousness outside or beyond that or these types or existences like these, ever, "forever" etc...

Yes, all through Ecclesiastes we see the vanity of this first life. But God isn't done with anyone the first time around. I will say that no one will have everlasting life without confessing Christ and overcoming through the Holy Spirit. Although they will have no memory of this former life, it still serves a purpose. If we have seen much in this life and still did not believe, we will be hindered during the judgment period (see Matt. 11:21-24).

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, dishonest. You know full well that nothing I have said can possibly indicate that Jesus is not the Savior at all, that His sacrifice didn’t save anyone.

And no He will not accept it, otherwise everyone who says to Jesus Lord Lord will enter heaven which is exactly what He said would NOT happen.

We seem to have gone full circle back to the contradiction you pointed out.

And since when is the savior of few, a Savior (capital S) at all?
Sounds like a failure to me. (no disrespect intended) I believe Jesus succeeded in being the Savior of the whole world. (his mission) Damnationists disagree.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Dishonest?
You were attempting to nullify one scripture with another. Bible versus Bible.

Was this to claim that NOT every knee will bow, and NOT every tongue confess?
Or just to claim that it would be to none effect? Or that God will only accept it from a select group? (even though it was genuine)

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you read the passage at Matt 7:21 et seq to mean that Jesus is going to send at least some of his hardworking disciples to burn forever, and without clearly telling them why?

Hard working? He clearly tells them why.

“And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These people didn’t follow Jesus’ teachings. To me this sounds like false professors like many televangelists who do fake healings and fake exorcisms for the sole purpose of making money.

 

[Neogaia777]

Don't become pharisitical with your free will, if you ever attain to it...

God Bless!

 

[JacksBratt]

You seem to be presuming that sending countless billions to eternal torment was a reasonable plan.

OK... let's get this straight.. Everyone is deserving of hell.. Everyone is heading there..

God does not "send" people to hell.. He gives them entrance to Heaven if they accept His generous gift of salvation through His Sons massive sacrifice on the cross...

 

[JacksBratt]

In a word, "Yes."
I also believe we will all go through the fire. Me and you. (everyone)
Jesus said...

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Yes, we go through the test of fire..

We are already citizens of heaven..

we go through the fire which burns away any unworthy works and actions..

We come out the other side.. some with nothing but their salvation.. others with some crowns and rewards..

others with many crowns and rewards for works done on earth, not for our salvation.. but as Gods feet and hands as being already part of the body of Christ..

Not to earn salvation but actions we did after acquiring salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

Do you really have that little faith in Jesus, that he'd smash ppl forever where they failed to do those works? Guess the philanthropic murderers who run the world would get a pass. Could it be that you're misunderstanding the purpose of the scripture? I take it, for instance, that you've not cut off hand or eye? So why read 25:46 so prejudicially and literally? What happened to getting out after paying the uttermost farthing?

And why does Jesus have to be cast as a psycho who'll 'turns on ya' and unleashes unimaginable torments for non-compliance? It's only there, in a handful of disparate scriptures, if you want it to be. God in the hands of angry sinners lol.

Shrewd, you and I don't differ in opinion that often. However, I must say that in this case, we do.

Jesus does not smash ppl who fail to do any "works".. Our salvation is free. Nothing we do can earn it..

The works we do are out of our faith and love for our savior... our rewards in heaven are for this.. Salvation is not a reward for anything we do.. It is a free gift for believing in Christ.

 

[JacksBratt]

So please, explain to me how it would’ve been better for Judas if he had never been born if he is destined to receive eternal life in heaven.

Good answer...

 

[JacksBratt]

If those ended up in paradise it sure would not be paradise anymore. Can you imagine living with the person who was your tormenter in life for all eternity? It's a gift that God doesn't allow this to happen, but gives the mockers what they wanted, separation from him.

Exactly.....

 

[JacksBratt]

That's a better approach. Thanks.
And I wouldn't claim that Judas is going straight to heaven without being first corrected and restored. This is similar to this sobering scripture below, and probably follows a similar level of literary exaggeration.

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

The idea that people can earn salvation by time spent in hell.. is absurd.. It is not supported by any scripture..

If Judas did not go straight to heaven without correction.. he ain't going there ever.

God created humans for a relationship..

In order to have a relationship that is of any value.. both parties must choose to love the other..

It is no good if you are told to be friends with anyone..

and.. would you want to have a companion that was your companion only because they had no choice... or they were forced to.. or they were paid to be?

So.. God created mankind.. to be in a relationship.. then... He gave them free will to choose.. Then.. He gave them the choice.. by faith.. to choose salvation..... or reject it..

In the end.. God will have an eternal relationship with those that choose Him on their own.. of their own free will..

Those that don't want to be around God.. Don't believe in God.. Are angry with God...

Well... He'll grand them their wish. They will never have to be around Him... ever.

 

[JacksBratt]

I think it is a fallacy to claim that anyone doesn't want salvation.
The claim of Damnationists is that those in hell wanted to be there.
This simply CANNOT be.

Said by one who loves God and actually did seek God out..

Speak to Richard Dawkins or any rabid atheist... You will find that many people don't want anything to do with God or salvation.. Some even stating that "Hell is where all the fun people will be"..

Maybe rethink that....

 

[JacksBratt]

Matthew 25:26

Thanks. I misunderstood your post.