Spiritual experiences.

[Francis Drake]

Yeah I get it, but Charismatics these days are more interested in the experience and the gifting itself rather than its purpose.

It would be equally fair to say that those who constantly distain the gifts display more interest in knowing their bible than in knowing the writer of that bible.

Distaining the spiritual gifts (charismata) is a slap in the face for God.
"We don't need your gifts, we manage perfectly well without them."

Have you noticed how many churches advertise a "worship experience" of their Sundays? What's that about?

Straw man argument.
It would be equally fair to say that teaching churches boast their theological excellence, but draw nobody a jot closer to the person of Christ.

 

[Scott Husted]

My experience has been, that God can show you more in a moment then all those who have ever lived can show you in a life time.

 

[NBB]

Then... ?

This is a friendly enquiry

I say there is something wrong, how someone can have a relationship with God, if God is almost 'dead' for them (doesn't do anything to them).

 

[TruthSeek3r]

I say there is something wrong, how someone can have a relationship with God, if God is almost 'dead' for them (doesn't do anything to them).

I agree with this. This actually reminded me of a testimony I watched some time ago that might be edifying to someone else:

A Personal Relationship With God

 

[HatGuy]

It would be equally fair to say that those who constantly distain the gifts display more interest in knowing their bible than in knowing the writer of that bible.

Yes, it would.

It would be equally fair to say that teaching churches boast their theological excellence, but draw nobody a jot closer to the person of Christ.

Yes, it would.

 

[HatGuy]

I say there is something wrong, how someone can have a relationship with God, if God is almost 'dead' for them (doesn't do anything to them).

That's exactly the problem.

But uncovering the "something" is exceptionally difficult sometimes.

I suppose more context would be required to understand what I'm getting at, but that would dishonour some people in my life, so I'll exit this convo now. Thanks guys.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have noticed members feel uncomfortable when one shares about ones encounters with Jesus and how He has impacted our lives.

In some cases it is because folks don't believe He does that stuff in this age - we just have the bible and our belief - there should be no talk of healings or anything miraculous - in fact those who claim such are considered deceived.

I posted part of my testimony here Jesus's Ministry not to draw attention to myself but to encourage others that there is a dynamic life to be lived with Him - He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Here is a typical post from a member...
===============
Men today have all kinds of spiritual experiences; That does not mean they are correct in what they are doing.

I believe faith is not based on experience, but faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
===============

Now the scripture he quotes - in the Greek - refers to faith coming from hearing a 'word of Christ'. Now this is commonly thought to be Scripture but the original language does not support this. What is meant is a living word from Jesus.

And this is the rub...

We have many teachers but very few fathers - why - because fathers have experience and teachers have knowledge.

I note that when Paul went to Jerusalem to testify concerning his ministry, he presented what was happening, not his theology.

It is a matter of some walk on the road and others study the map.

Those who walk on the road have to hear Jesus speak in order to be doing His appointed works.

Those who study Scripture want you works to align with their theology.

I have arrived at the age when I don't care so much about what folks think - I have spoken to many who have encountered Jesus directly in this age but wont talk about it. This is because such experiences don't fit the neat theology of our teachers.

So I will continue to share my walk with Jesus because I believe many have been 'short changed' into believing there is nothing valid beyond what the bible actually says, when there is a world of opportunity to walk with Him in obedience which brings Glory to Him and attracts the unsaved into the Kingdom.

I agree but know there is the difficulty of the branch that is into experience for experience sake not for the sake of coming to know God or make Him known. You know what I mean, they see angels who deliver no message. They have gold dust flecks appear as sweat. Blood appears on their hands. IT is like a magic show and the believers are loving it. A church worship leader told me she saw huge angel wings and could not speak. That was it. No messge. No truth communicated. Just experience and I was supposed to be in awe. I would have rebuked it if I had been there and see what happens.

I was speaking to our Young adults once and I told them when anyone tells me God spoke to them, I Always ask "what did He say" and they all laughed. I was Pretty surprised but I realized that WHAT God supposedly said was immaterial. Just that they had the experience of Hearing God was important. That is a Problem in this matter.

 

[NBB]

That's exactly the problem.

But uncovering the "something" is exceptionally difficult sometimes.

I suppose more context would be required to understand what I'm getting at, but that would dishonour some people in my life, so I'll exit this convo now. Thanks guys.

Ok, i didn't wish to say something hurtful or anything, its just that for example, converting is an experience, if there is no change in your interior after converting, did you really convert?

 

[Amittai]

My observation is that the churches that disdain gifts and miracles in their teaching are few and aren't a real problem to the rest of us.

It is imbalance in those who appear to be teaching a fuller range of teachings. For example, those who wanted us to copy the meme of terraforming across the landscape magicking the illnesses out of people, magicking people into church attendance, etc. What I don't get from those videos is the prayer and the solidity of the lives of those that stayed home.

Dr Pawson says most christians aren't given a normal birth. There is (cute feline synonym) footing around various versions of raptures. Do christians care how well the next christian lives? Is it solely about high profile barbecues?

Carl you and your friends presumably weren't magicking. You are forerunners because God wants to pique our interest in His whole deal. God says what He says by not saying what He is not saying. Too late, we'll find our ears - His own people - had been shut.

Didn't Jesus teach we are to stand up for the downtrodden in the way we put our relationship to God right and the way we intercede before Him constantly?

Some christians are refusing to continue repenting. Are ignoring the past sins of our nations and denominations. England forbad Ireland to receive religious instruction from the English thereby ensuring it would be prone to errors from abroad, now in turn spread to America & Australia. England forbad the Irish to raise their arms while dancing. Wrongful mutant capitalism caused enclosures, slavery, hedge funds.

Are we complacent about these things in our hearts before God? Are we complacent about the single? Are we tribal about church members with different body language from us? Are we afraid the person next to us in the pew is going to show us up therefore we'll look down our noses about his obvious downcastness during the rock concert or the compulsory confection? Is church a party? We get told in large numbers, we are to stay away and find somewhere else. Or we get told we are never to be considered as non members.

Who cares whether I grow in character, maturity, prudence? Of course I see miracles are needed! Who cares enough about my part in it? Do we say oh well that denominational leader is off the rails as if it doesn't concern us. Do we not plead to God for ALL christians?

I've been mixed up in weird religion for two thirds of a century. Of course onlookers aren't impressed.

We've got to see where the dichotomy IS and not where it ISN'T.

 

[Amittai]

It would be equally fair to say that those who constantly distain the gifts display more interest in knowing their bible than in knowing the writer of that bible.

Distaining the spiritual gifts (charismata) is a slap in the face for God.
"We don't need your gifts, we manage perfectly well without them."

Straw man argument.
It would be equally fair to say that teaching churches boast their theological excellence, but draw nobody a jot closer to the person of Christ.

Those aren't really straw man arguments after all. Please see my adjacent post.

 

[Amittai]

As a person with low-key neurol-ogi-cal conditions I'm not thought worth mentoring. My intellect has led me towards the charisms, not away from them. Roller coaster salespeople (of whatever politics) and dialectical materialist confectioners * aren't meeting the concern raised by Carl, a concern I share.

Truthseek3r, the answer on the spot is either. It's the way their fellow christians help them after that that shows where the cookie is going to crumble.

Somebody like Francis D is painting a barely relevant dialectic, hysteria versus dead faith. This was drummed into me at age 17. It has not stood me in good stead since.

* Just like Hat Guy I can trot out lurid samples. (True to his responsible position, he is more discreet than I.) Is there anyone active in the thread that wants to accuse us of not having lived through what we have lived through? That insists on demeaning our exasperation?

 

[Amittai]

...
The biggest danger for the body of Christ (as can be witnessed on the Forum) is that the meaning of scripture is invariably interpreted by intellectuals, theologians and academics, or should I say, Pharisees, Lawyers, and Teachers of the Law, all condemned by Jesus.
...

What's with the blanket? Your blanket doesn't ring true.

NBB, Hat Guy's questions are good. You haven't given enough context. In my own posts I have always pointed out a lot of context and that's just me.

I'm trying to see if there are rails for the thread to get on, to help Carl.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Truthseek3r, the answer on the spot is either. It's the way their fellow christians help them after that that shows where the cookie is going to crumble.

@Amittai would you mind quoting the post of mine you are replying to? I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean.

 

[Amittai]

... (again, forget about Charismatics) ? When someone is filled with the Holy Spirit, is there any clear experience involved, or does it happen subconsciously, without the person being aware of it in the moment?

My mistake, it was part of your post 21.

My own view of the answer was, it might be either momentarily, but with full enough teaching we'll see a range of gifts.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

My mistake, it was part of your post 21.

My own view of the answer was, it might be either momentarily, but with full enough teaching we'll see a range of gifts.

How is it possible to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and not to have an experience at all? Is there any example in the Bible where someone is filled with the Holy Spirit in a subconscious way? To the best of my knowledge, in all examples in the Bible where someone is filled with the Holy Spirit there is a clear experience, i.e., the person is conscious of it (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Francis Drake]

Those aren't really straw man arguments after all. Please see my adjacent post.

As far as I am concerned they were straw man arguments, as is your "adjacent post", a rant against stuff the OP wasn't really talking about.

 

[Francis Drake]

How is it possible to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and not to have an experience at all? Is there any example in the Bible where someone is filled with the Holy Spirit in a subconscious way?

Acts1v8"But you shall receive power when they Holy Spirit comes upon you...…."
I seem to remember this definition from my physics lessons at school.-
Power = ability to do work.

Seems to me if people aren't showing any power, then maybe they aren't filled.​

To the best of my knowledge, in all examples in the Bible where someone is filled with the Holy Spirit there is a clear experience (correct me if I'm wrong)

I agree with you, but most churches conflate salvation with being filled with the spirit. ie. there is no Pentecost event.
Thus all Christians are automatically filled whether they like it or not.

And given that most Christians manifest no spiritual gifts, they take that as proof that the gifts have ceased.

And according to them, the gifts ceased either "when the apostles died" or they ceased "when that which is perfect is come" ie. the bible was completed.

Don't ask me where they get such nonsense, cos I haven't a clue.

Me, I'd much rather walk in the spirit, listening to what God says to me.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree in principle but what happens when there is no:

inner desire
peace
joy
dreams
unexplainable coincidences

And so on.

I'm not asking these questions to be contrarian or difficult, I am asking in light of some real-life cases.

You get together and ask Him for it...