Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

[martymonster]

The Word of God told us already that an entity rules this plane of existence, and He has also told us He is not from this plane of existence either. At least the earth is NOT heaven; the native state of entities from the Most High is spirit.

We ignore a lot to make "the best" of this world, but the truth is the questions Christians and atheists alike have of this plane of existence - the confusion and qualms - are all because this entity has diligently used its power to 1) mimic what many of us know of as the spiritual, and 2) keep as many people down here as possible - enticing them with flatteries, pleasure and exaltation. This is its doing, the entity masquerading as the Lord plays both sides to control all flows of "chaos", or choice. When we ask, "why is God absent/not listening/etc" it is because we realize what is wrong, but we don't realize who the god is we are talking about.

80 years is nothing compared to eternity; you get 80 - 120 years to figure out how to get out of this plane of existence ruled by a fake god. The Word of God didn't even have to address this plane of existence, but some of His people are stuck here as well, so for their sake, He came down and showed us a way to escape hell.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[mmksparbud]

View attachment 272712

He doesn't. But His justice does demand their annihilation. That is what wipes out sin---the sinner is done away with. The do not want to be with Jesus, they would rather die. The wages of sin is not eternal torture---it is death. The gift of God is eternal life. No sinner gets eternal life also in order to be tormented. It is eternal death. There are only 2 choices, God and eternal life--no God and eternal death.

 

[martymonster]

He doesn't. But His justice does demand their annihilation. That is what wipes out sin---the sinner is done away with. The do not want to be with Jesus, they would rather die. The wages of sin is not eternal torture---it is death. The gift of God is eternal life. No sinner gets eternal life also in order to be tormented. It is eternal death. There are only 2 choices, God and eternal life--no God and eternal death.

Thing this is though, when Christ tells the parable of the sheep and the goats, there sounds like there is a lot of people in that story (many) who don't sound as though they've chosen to be separated from Christ, but Christ tells them to depart form him. That kind of sound like the complete opposite of what you are saying. In fact, it sounds like the goats don't know they're goats, and the sheep don't know they're sheep.

 

[Cimorene]

View attachment 272712

The nasty meme about Hillary Clinton is showing up as an attachment so Idk if you meant to include that in the main post. Did the same person post both? Do you think he posted the pics to troll or be for real?

 

[martymonster]

The nasty meme about Hillary Clinton is showing up as an attachment so Idk if you meant to include that in the main post. Did the same person post both? Do you think he posted the pics to troll or be for real?

Really? That's weird. It's not a Hilary meme.

 

[mmksparbud]

Thing this is though, when Christ tells the parable of the sheep and the goats, there sounds like there is a lot of people in that story (many) who don't sound as though they've chosen to be separated from Christ, but Christ tells them to depart form him. That kind of sound like the complete opposite of what you are saying. In fact, it sounds like the goats don't know they're goats, and the sheep don't know they're sheep.

The goats know they're goats---mostly--they're the fake evangelists in it for a buck, the self righteous who have talked themselves into thinking they are better than others, the proud and vain too proud and vain to fully surrender to God. And so on. We are very good at self justification----God reads the heart and His judgment is true. Some of the sheep may be too unsure if they have truly given up every sin or not. They want to be totally submissive to God---they are not rejected by God. But we can be sure of our salvation and have no need to worry---0we submit and ask that God has opened our eyes to all our sins that we may ask forgiveness for them and trust in Him to do so.

 

[martymonster]

The goats know they're goats---mostly--they're the fake evangelists in it for a buck, the self righteous who have talked themselves into thinking they are better than others, the proud and vain too proud and vain to fully surrender to God. And so on. We are very good at self justification----God reads the heart and His judgment is true. Some of the sheep may be too unsure if they have truly given up every sin or not. They want to be totally submissive to God---they are not rejected by God. But we can be sure of our salvation and have no need to worry---0we submit and ask that God has opened our eyes to all our sins that we may ask forgiveness for them and trust in Him to do so.

Really? Where did you read that? You're not just reading into the situation, to make it mean what you want it to, are you?

 

[Cimorene]

Really? That's weird. It's not a Hilary meme.

I took a screenshot to show you what I'm seeing.

The Hillary meme is attached as a file. I clicked on the file & it pulled up as big as the other meme. So I was confuzzled as to whether the same friend had posted both or what.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

There are lots of attempts to make eternal torment seem reasonable. This is one of them. But the passages show God sending them to it. The OT images of fire are fire from heaven, not fires that came from knocking over a lamp and got out of control.

If annihilation is true, it's annihilation done by God.

Personally I think anything other than universalism has severe moral problems, though it's not the obvious reading of much of the NT.

God does not send people to hell. God has given us the opportunity of salvation, and people who choose to reject God send themselves to hell.
Also, fire is often used as figure of speech in the Bible. I think Hell is also described as a place of darkness somewhere in the Bible, yet fire would illuminate.
And 'I (God) take no pleasure in the death of the wicked' (Ezekiel 33:11)

 

[Peter J Barban]

Just as the Bible says God cannot be mocked, it says that Vengeance belongs to God, not man.

These facts are both true and not in conflict:
1. Christians are to love their enemies.
2. Christ will torment his unrepentant enemies forever after they die.

To mock these two facts is to reject the integrity of the Bible and create a different gospel.


God wants us to forgive our enemies and even forgo justice for ourselves. Yet, this love for our enemies is always in view of the eventual justice of God. God offers kindness to sinners today in hopes that his patience will lead them to repentance, but promises eternal wrath to the unrepentant.

See John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

 

[CaspianSails]

Hell is as real as this earth. It was created for the angels that rebelled but then man, Adam, chose poorly and rebelled as well wanting to be like God. God is merciful and sent His Son to pay the price for our sin yet He is rejected. The end result for those who do not become disciples is what Revelation calls the Lake of fire. Hell is cast into the lake of fire as are the fallen angels and all of fallen mankind who were not disciples or followers of Christ. Those for whom Christ is or was Lord and Savior they will enter His glory.

 

[martymonster]

I took a screenshot to show you what I'm seeing.
View attachment 272724

The Hillary meme is attached as a file. I clicked on the file & it pulled up as big as the other meme. So I was confuzzled as to whether the same friend had posted both or what.

Yeah, that is weird. I'll see if I can fix it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Really? Where did you read that? You're not just reading into the situation, to make it mean what you want it to, are you?

Call it what you want.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is not said to unbelievers---it is said to those who do wonders in His name.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

 

[SkyWriting]

For all the times I've seen Christ talking (what most think is about hell) I've never heard him mention this. Why do you think that is?

If you post those passages, you will see that the torment people experience in Hell is of their own doing, and not an outside force, person, or influence.

In the original language usage, it's not a future destination.
It's the current state of non-believers. They are living in Hell.

 

[hedrick]

God does not send people to hell. God has given us the opportunity of salvation, and people who choose to reject God send themselves to hell.

"You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell?" (Mat 23:33) There are many other passages like this.

Luke 16:19 (Lazarus and the rich man) if it's a literal account of hell shows someone being tormented, who wants out but can't get out.

None of this suggests simple isolation caused a person's own choices. Ultimately being sent to hell may be due to a persons choices, but if you understand these passages traditionally, God puts you there, God is responsible for your torment, and God won't let you out.

All these ideas about God giving people what they want and Hell being locked from the inside are just as far from a traditional "literal" reading as annihilation and universalism.

 

[hedrick]

The interesting thing about the OP is that it quotes Mat 5:44 which does indeed say to love your enemies because God treats his enemies well. It doesn't quite say that God loves them, but that seems to be the clear implication. The parallel in Luke comes closer. Luke 6:35-36 says to be kind to your enemies because God is kind and merciful to the wicked.

It is, of course, possible that God is merciful only during this life, and when they die throws them into hell. But somehow "love your enemies to be like me, who is merciful temporarily so I can torture them forever after they die" loses some of its force.

I admit it's a problem. We have both these statements about God being merciful to his enemies, Paul's vision of final reconciliation, and descriptions of punishment. Something is non-literal. I would suggest for your consideration that it might be the punishments, at least in Jesus' teachings. (I think the Revelation really does intend to teach vengeance.) There's no question Jesus intends to teach accountability. But perhaps the vision of 1 Cor 3:12-15 is behind Jesus' ideas of judgement.

1 Cor 3:12 is dangerous to cite in this kind of discussion, because it is clearly aimed at Christians. It certainly teaches that they will end up saved even though much of what they did is destroyed. It says nothing about non-Christians. But Jesus' statements about judgement aren't aimed at pagans either. He's warning his listeners, not threatening third parties. Indeed most of the NT references to judgement are in the context of warning lazy Christians, not describing what happens to non-Christians.

 

[Der Alte]

If you post those passages, you will see that the torment people experience in Hell is of their own doing, and not an outside force, person, or influence.
In the original language usage, it's not a future destination.
It's the current state of non-believers. They are living in Hell.

That is incorrect. In Luke 16:24 the rich man said "I am tormented" which is present, passive, indicative, but that was after his death.

 

[1213]

So, how's he wrong?

Bible doesn’t say that God or Jesus is torturing anyone.

Bible tells eternal life is for righteous and others have second death and they are destroyed.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

 

[Der Alte]

....This is not said to unbelievers---it is said to those who do wonders in His name....

It is said to people who only claim to do many mighty works in the name of Jesus. I could name a few such today who fly around in private jets and live in million dollar mansions. But Jesus said I never knew you. That never does not stop when they depart.

 

[martymonster]

Bible doesn’t say that God or Jesus is torturing anyone.

Bible tells eternal life is for righteous and others have second death and they are destroyed.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

But how do you reconcile that idea, with verses like this one?


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.