Why do people disagree on the condition(s) for salvation?

[Tone]

It is the last day.

You have come to that day...do you hear only His Voice and no noise?

 

[Phil W]

When a Catholic approaches communion knowing that the bread has become the body of Christ, and a Baptist approaches believing some other thing altogether, it is different.

I can agree with that, but you are starting a whole new thread with it.

 

[Phil W]

I'm glad that God is my judge and Jesus my Saviour. You need to be real careful. You will be judged the way you judge others.

I can only repeat what scripture says.
BTW, I have already suffered my judgement, and the verdict for my sins was death. (Rom 6:23)
That death was accomplished at my crucifixion with Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)
A new creature was then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
What kind of life?
Rom 6:7 spells it out..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

 

[Phil W]

You have come to that day...do you hear only His Voice and no noise?

The last day has yet to happen, but all alive will see and hear it happen.

 

[anna ~ grace]

The reformation is partly responsible. The idea of a workless faith came from Luther and Calvin who couldn't seem to make distinctions regarding the word "works" and didn't realize that Paul talked about works in different contexts. So any "work" at all is said by some protestant denominations to destroy faith and grace.

Luther called James a heretic and wished that book could be thrown out of the bible.

There are three kinds of works according to Paul:

1. Works of an obsolete covenant which was nailed to the cross.
2. Works of merit which men invent themselves. - Ie; 'I'm saved because I'm a good person. I feed the homeless and I'm really nice to people, and I made my bed first thing when I got up every morning.'
3. The works of God which he commanded us to do.

Now those distinctions can easily be seen by reading the text, but not if you refuse to look. If you see the word works and just think it means any old work including baptism and the Lord's Supper, then you are quite frankly mistaken.

Jesus said that belief itself was a work. If we aren't saved by works, then we cannot be saved at all. But we are saved by works - the works God created us to walk in. The very giving of those commands is, by definition, grace. They are a gift, they are not drudgery or punishment. Obeying them brings salvation. How could that not be grace?

If your mother teaches you how to bake bread, she gives you the recipe and instruction and every time you bake a loaf, you thank her for those instructions. You don't accuse her of being ungracious because you are required to do some work before you can eat the bread. But that is exactly what this 'faith alone' idea does. It rejects any work at all and if someone points at scripture that clearly commands us to do things, responds that a 'just God' wouldn't make us 'earn' salvation.

"Isn't it your ways that are unfair, Oh man?"

If no work is required for salvation, then everyone is saved and we can all continue in sin so that grace may abound.

Al, that is an awesome explanation. Thank you. Deo gratias.

 

[timothyu]

"For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Yes the Kingdom was built and came into being. We were freed from original death only. Choice still remains whether one will abide by it's rules here to prove our worthiness. The tares and seed are known by their fruits. God asks we put His will before our own. There will be no room in the Kingdom for those who do not want or see the wisdom of that request and continue believing the will of man is the better way. God's Kingdom will not resemble any government or institution of man in ideal for the ways of man and of God run opposite.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Al, that is an awesome explanation. Thank you. Deo gratias.

Thank you!

 

[Phil W]

Yes the Kingdom was built and came into being. We were freed from original death only. Choice still remains whether one will abide by it's rules here to prove our worthiness. The tares and seed are known by their fruits. God asks we put His will before our own. There will be no room in the Kingdom for those who do not want or see the wisdom of that request and continue believing the will of man is the better way. God's Kingdom will not resemble any government or institution of man in ideal for the ways of man and of God run opposite.

What do you mean by "original death"?
The wages of sin is death...death # 1.
The lake of fire is the second death: for all whose names are not written in the book of life.
My crucifixion with Jesus took care of the first one, so I will live forever.

I don't measure life by the condition of the vessel.

 

[timothyu]

The lake of fire is the second death: for all whose names are not written in the book of life.

That part did not exist for us until Jesus brought the
gospel of the Kingdom to fruition by fulfilling His role in doing so..

 

[Phil W]

That part did not exist for us until Jesus brought the
gospel of the Kingdom to fruition by fulfilling His role in doing so..

Which part did not exist?
The lake of fire or the book of life?
Which scriptures do you use to verify your POV?

 

[timothyu]

Which scriptures do you use to verify your POV?

Did the Gospel of the Kingdom exist before Jesus taught it or was it to come to fruition by way of His actions? What purpose would a lake of fire or a book serve without the Kingdom?

 

[klutedavid]

Whether one is saved or not is of utmost importance. Why can Christians not agree on this topic?

I don't think for one moment that any Christian would entertain the idea. That Jesus Christ is not the sole reason for our salvation.

There is salvation in no one else but Jesus Christ.

You may be rather talking about the process of sanctification.

 

[klutedavid]

Yep, you are using 1 Cor 15:1-4 for that belief which is correct.

The main confusion is that some Christians read what Jesus said in the 4 Gospels, and they are confused because some of what he said seems to imply that they need to do works in order to be saved.

Some of these include Matthew 7:21 and Luke 10:25-37

This is one of the main problems that I have encountered in Christianity.

Doctrines not based on the apostles teaching but rather doctrine developed from the accounts written about the life of Jesus (the gospels).

 

[timothyu]

Doctrines not based on the apostles teaching

Which apostles?

 

[klutedavid]

The ones in submission to God are the Christian.

I would say that those that bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit are those that would be classed as bona fide Christians. You will know them by observing the fruit they bear.

 

[klutedavid]

Which apostles?

The one's that Jesus chose to teach and correct the church.

 

[timothyu]

The one's that Jesus chose to teach and correct the church.

Teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom which commands us to put the will of the Father first and love all as self? That not only corrects the church but all of mankind.

 

[klutedavid]

Did the Gospel of the Kingdom exist before Jesus taught it or was it to come to fruition by way of His actions? What purpose would a lake of fire or a book serve without the Kingdom?

The gospel of Jesus Christ was a mystery, a hidden truth, until the light shone in the darkness.

 

[Phil W]

Did the Gospel of the Kingdom exist before Jesus taught it or was it to come to fruition by way of His actions? What purpose would a lake of fire or a book serve without the Kingdom?

How about answering my question first?

 

[klutedavid]

Teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom which commands us to put the will of the Father first and love all as self?

The will of the Father is to believe in the Son.

We were commanded to love other as Christ has loved us, which is a step up from loving others in the way we love ourselves.