Why do people disagree on the condition(s) for salvation?

[coffee4u]

And repentance can not mean 100% sinless perfection after you are saved and or baptized and/or have repented only once as a one time act either, cause we all know Peter sinned that Paul pointed out, and Paul may have sinned when he caved into the Jews by having Timothy circumcised, etc, and while not as apparent, or recorded, I'm sure others still sinned sometimes after they were saved as well also, etc.

Also the word "repent"or "repentance" can mean many different things as well, not the least/most of which has to do with, or has to mean, etc, 100% total and sinless perfection continually after you are saved, etc, or you might lose salvation, etc, it cannot mean that or nobody would be saved as evidenced from or by, even some of our own most highly esteemed apostles in our Bibles, so it cannot mean that...

I think it has to be an "attitude" or humble perspective or point of view or state of mind and heart continually after you have been saved, that you "walk in" when you sin or mess up, or realize you just messed up afterward, etc, and not that your always going to be, or are ever going to be, this side of life anyway, 100% totally and 100% sinlessly perfect and never mess up ever again after you are saved, etc, etc, etc.

I think it has to be an attitude or humble (and "repentant") state of mind and/or heart, etc, that you walk in after you are saved, or that is the true evidence or your being saved, and not complete 100% total 100% sinless perfection, etc. Otherwise I don't think anyone would be saved, etc, as evidenced by some of our very own most highly esteemed "people" who were saved and had already been converted in the Bible, and yet still messed up sometimes and/or still fell short sometimes, etc...

So, in conclusion, I think it is having the right kind of attitude when we do sin or mess up from time to time, etc, (the complete opposite of being proud, haughty, arrogant, etc), that we walk in after we are saved when we mess up, or realize afterward that we may have, or did mess up, etc, that is the most telling about our own state of salvation, etc...

But, I also don't think one can be saved and/or converted and be living a "hedonistic free for all lifestyle" either, or be purposely practicing one, etc, and truly be saved either, or not saved "yet", etc. If one is living that kind of lifestyle before conversion, then I would think they would have to "change" that or repent of that much, but no one is not ever going to never ever mess up in no kind of way ever afterwards either, that's just not possible for us, etc, and I think it is our attitudes when we do mess up or realize we have messed up, or did or may have messed up, etc, that are the "most telling" about our own state of salvation, etc...

God Bless!

Nowhere did I mention or hint at sinless perfection or a hedonistic free for all lifestyle? Perhaps you have me confused for someone else.

 

[Neogaia777]

Nowhere did I mention or hint at sinless perfection or a hedonistic free for all lifestyle? Perhaps you have me confused for someone else.

No you didn't at all, I was trying to help or assist you, etc, with your argument with @Guojing, etc...?

I mentioned it cause I thought it might help, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[coffee4u]

No you didn't at all, I was trying to help or assist you, etc, with your argument with @Guojing, etc...?

I mentioned it cause I thought it might help, etc...?

God Bless!

Oh thank you. I will admit to not reading all the thread or seeing what Guojing had said previously.

 

[Guojing]

I am not force-fitting anything. I am looking deeper at a verse that on first glance seems to contradict other scripture. Since we know that scripture cannot contradict scripture this means we are missing something. To me, looking at the Greek should be the next step in reading and understanding puzzling verses.



I know that cultural aspects and who is being addressed can also come into interpreting scripture, but most times I check other Scripture or the Greek. For me knowing what to look up regarding the cultural aspects would be 'mental gymnastics'. Not saying the cultural aspects aren't valid, I just don't know them well enough for it to help me without significant digging. That is something I would look to after I have checked other scripture and the Greek. Knowing that Jesus was addressing the 11 disciples in Mark 16 does not help me in interpreting the verse. If it helps you, good.

So, just to clarify, you do not agree that all Jews had to be water baptized under the Gospel of the Kingdom?

 

[coffee4u]

So, just to clarify, you do not agree that all Jews had to be water baptized under the Gospel of the Kingdom?

You are asking questions about things that I don't really think about and have no firm views on.

My post had nothing to do with the Jewish people, but I assume if they are wanting to become Christian instead of Jewish that yes, they should also get baptised. This has nothing to do with the original question on this thread, which is namely salvation.

 

[Guojing]

You are asking questions about things that I don't really think about and have no firm views on.

My post had nothing to do with the Jewish people, but I assume if they are wanting to become Christian instead of Jewish that yes, they should also get baptised. This has nothing to do with the original question on this thread, which is namely salvation.

Isn't "becoming a Christian" equivalent to "becoming saved" to you?

 

[timothyu]

but I assume if they are wanting to become Christian instead of Jewish

It wasn't a new way but an addenda to their lives and beliefs. .

 

[Phil W]

Peter was preaching to the Jews during Pentecost (Acts 2:36)
It will be superfluous for him to add "Oh by the way, don't forget, the Law of Moses continue to apply to all of you" after Acts 2:38.

Or it could have been another presage of a future free of the Law.

His attitude towards eating unclean food was already revealed in Acts 10, so yes, in Peter's view, the Law of Moses continue to apply.

You missed the part of Acts 10 where God told him it didn't matter anymore..."And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." (v 15)
Perhaps a second "message" illuminating the end of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Phil W]

Everybody stumbles.But unless one looses allegiance to the will of God and returns to the will of man, then it is just that. A stumble.

Nobody sins after crucifying the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Thanks be to God !!

 

[coffee4u]

Isn't "becoming a Christian" equivalent to "becoming saved" to you?

Well of course, but I don't really think it matters what the person was before they got saved. I'm not sure if you are talking about a Jewish person now or then. Why are you bringing them up at all?
A person, no matter if they are a secular humanist, Jewish or whatever gets saved by
Confessing Jesus is Lord.

Not really sure why you are trying to argue with me or what your point is except to be annoying? This isn't the debate area, so go find someone else to debate, thank you.

 

[Guojing]

Well of course, but I don't really think it matters what the person was before they got saved. I'm not sure if you are talking about a Jewish person now or then. Why are you bringing them up at all?
A person, no matter if they are a secular humanist, Jewish or whatever gets saved by
Confessing Jesus is Lord.

Not really sure why you are trying to argue with me or what your point is except to be annoying? This isn't the debate area, so go find someone else to debate, thank you.

No I was just trying to clarify what your viewpoint is. Were Jews required to be baptized during the time of the 4 Gospels.

If a Jew refused to undergo it, what would John the Baptist, for example, say to him regarding whether he is saved? (Luke 7:29-30)

If you don't wish to answer that, it is fine too.

 

[Guojing]

Or it could have been another presage of a future free of the Law.


You missed the part of Acts 10 where God told him it didn't matter anymore..."And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." (v 15)
Perhaps a second "message" illuminating the end of the Mosaic Law.

Yes, the point was that only in Acts 10 did God reveal to him it did not matter. More significantly, that was just after Stephen was stoned, which reinforced the timetable I stated to you in a previous post.

At no point did he get that lesson from the resurrected Christ Jesus during the 40 days before he ascended from heaven.

So the conclusion was that, from Acts 1 until Stephen was stoned, the Gospel of the Kingdom, and the Law of Moses, continue to hold for all Jews.

 

[Phil W]

Yes, the point was that only in Acts 10 did God reveal to him it did not matter. More significantly, that was just after Stephen was stoned, which reinforced the timetable I stated to you in a previous post.

At no point did he get that lesson from the resurrected Christ Jesus during the 40 days before he ascended from heaven.

So the conclusion was that, from Acts 1 until Stephen was stoned, the Gospel of the Kingdom, and the Law of Moses, continue to hold for all Jews.

I don't know about your thesis.
I can't wrap my mind around two different covenants being in force at the same time.

 

[Guojing]

I don't know about your thesis.
I can't wrap my mind around two different covenants being in force at the same time.

Think of Acts as a transitional period between the 2.

After Stephen was stoned, Jesus saved Paul and relay to him the new Gospel of grace.

But if you put yourself in the shoes of the James the Just for example, it is very understandable why James for example, being a devout Jew, would resist the notion that the Law of Moses have passed for all of them.

 

[Phil W]

Think of Acts as a transitional period between the 2.

After Stephen was stoned, Jesus saved Paul and relay to him the new Gospel of grace.

But if you put yourself in the shoes of the James the Just for example, it is very understandable why James for example, being a devout Jew, would resist the notion that the Law of Moses have passed for all of them.

I feel that the Jews were as dead to the Law as the Gentiles.
They just didn't know it yet.

 

[Guojing]

I feel that the Jews were as dead to the Law as the Gentiles.
They just didn't know it yet.

Its definitely easier for non Jews to understand that, since the Law of Moses was never given to us.

But to the Jews then, it was a huge deal. Its like an American who is very proud of his Constitution. If suddenly you were told by a fellow American that the Constitution is now abolished, I betcha there will be a number of Americans who will oppose that with their lives.

That was how many of the Jews regarded Paul then, that explains why he was so persecuted throughout his life.

 

[Phil W]

Its definitely easier for non Jews to understand that, since the Law of Moses was never given to us.

But to the Jews then, it was a huge deal. Its like an American who is very proud of his Constitution. If suddenly you were told by a fellow American that the Constitution is now abolished, I betcha there will be a number of Americans who will oppose that with their lives.

That was how many of the Jews regarded Paul then, that explains why he was so persecuted throughout his life.

Perhaps so.
I really think the Jews hated Paul because he preached real righteousness instead of the righteousness of the Law.
The unredeemed prefer access to sin rather than access to the perfect righteousness of life in Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Perhaps so.
I really think the Jews hated Paul because he preached real righteousness instead of the righteousness of the Law.
The unredeemed prefer access to sin rather than access to the perfect righteousness of life in Christ.

Acts 22 and Luke 4 provided the scriptural evidence. The Jews were quiet with Paul telling them Jesus has resurrected from the dead, they were quiet when they heard Paul address him as Lord.

But the moment they heard that the Lord is sending him to the Gentiles, they erupted in fury.

Ironically, it was the same reason that cause their Jewish fathers to want to kill Jesus in Luke 4.

22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

From these 2 incidents, we learn that Jews are especially incensed when anyone tells them that they are not God's favorite race.

 

[timothyu]

From these 2 incidents, we learn that Jews are especially incensed when anyone tells them that they are not God's favorite race.

In those days it was especially complicated to change one's resume.