How many are saved?

[Hawkins]

So gods moral code is embedded in our spirit weather we know it or not? How can you explain sociopaths? They’re estimated to be about 3% of the population. Did god just mess up when he put their moral code in, or did god intentionally make them so they can mess things up? These people are like this from birth because of our imperfect evolutionary history.

The establishment of earth is for humans to have freewill, and capable of influenced by the fallen angels. This is the same setup in Eden with angels living with humans. It will be the same setup in the future Heaven where the more intelligent angels will be living with the less intelligent humans.

There's a reason behind to link the 3 up.

Morality is granted the same to all humans (the bread part of pizza). Humans on the other hand, has the ability to twist it especially under the intangible influence from ultimately the fallen angels. Morality is granted the same for the purpose of the Final Judgment where the same standard is used to judge all mankind.

This is a requirement more likely from the Noah covenant. Added upon, Mosaic covenant is used for the judgment of the Jews (defined in a covenantal sense). Added upon is the New Covenant that both the Jews and gentiles will be judged.

 

[Hawkins]

I think god should kill less humans and put no one in hell. A true loving, forgiving, and good god wouldn’t do either.

Your ask is a circular square. You need to learn some mathematics to tell the impossibility.

That said. God literally kills every single human, or else no one dies. There's not a particular way of dying is more "advantageous". Your dying in an ancient hospital won't make you more comfortable than dying in the battlefield.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I don’t understand the connection between acts 17 and my argument. My problem is with god killing innocent babies as a punishment for someone else’s crimes. Weather or not murdered babies get in the back door of heaven sometimes doesn’t matter. It’s still immoral to demand the killing of innocent babies, especially for crimes committed up to 500 years earlier.

“Ultimately God is the one who's brought those ends about too”

I appreciate you recognizing god’s role in killing babies.

Three times I watched my mother paint little teddy bears on the walls of our nursery, sew little outfits, and read the Bible to a little baby in her womb. Three times I watched my dad build a crib as he stressed out over baby names. Three times I watched my grandparents yell with excitement as they heard the news... and three times I saw their faces as they watched a little baby suffer. Three times I watched my mom hold a limp, lifeless body as it took its last breath. I’ll never forget the way she looked... People can never really recover from trauma like that. Nothing can ever be the same. No one can trust such excitement, such anticipation, such joy, not after something like that. Not after the third time... now there’s nothing left but to bury your sorrows beneath your awareness, only to have the memories regurgitated every time you hear the right name or see the right face...

The world is a cruel place. We forget that sometimes in countries like ours... but we’re never more than one step ahead of unimaginable heartache. God wouldn’t even have to do much to ease our suffering. Just let us know he hears our most desperate cries. Let us know we’re not alone. Give us some real assurance that our lost loved ones are in heaven... we don’t get any real answers. We’re even meant to despise ourselves and repent when we ask questions (Job 42)

Of course I would hate a god who’s responsible for all this. I’m glad he doesn’t exist. I’m glad I don’t have to fear my brothers are in hell because hell doesn’t exist. I wish an all good, all loving god was controlling everything, but the world we know is far better explained by the mindless processes of nature.

I think it is true that for ChristopherHays the God that is described in the Bible is seen as having appalling and disgusting morals. Righterzpen seems to believe that whatever God says or does is always perfectly moral because God is the basis for morality. I think it is interesting that genocide and slavery is commanded in the Bible because it proves how far Righterzpen's faith will go....

My mother was a 10 to 12 beers a night alcoholic for as long as I can remember. She quit drinking the last 2 to 3 weeks of her life and died of lung cancer at 57 years old.

My brother is a pedophile. I was sexually abused between 4 and 10 years old. There are at least 6 other victims (including my two other sisters) of his that I'm aware of. He hasn't stopped. Never came to the attention of the police and he's a fireman in city fire district. If I were a "gamblin' (wo)man" I'd take it to Vagas right now that he's sexually abused his daughters.

I'd contacted an investigator at one point over photos dad found in his bedroom of some of my brother's other victims. (We didn't recognize any of these girls.) The cop said that based on the information I had, the age of the photos, the statute of limitation had run out and unless a current victim comes forward; the police can't do anything.

I'm also a war veteran. I scraped dead Iraqis out of tank treads after Desert Storm. I was exposed to chemical and biological weapons. We knew that even though the DOD official position was that there was no chemical or biological weapons used in Desert Storm. We had gager counters and chemical weapons detection kits and we knew the stuff we were cleaning was "hot". (I worked mostly with civilian contractors. My command sent me because everyone else was getting sick.) I got chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, vertigo, migraines and PTSD from being in the military.

I found out after I got out of the military (how I got out of the military is another story) that the chemical and biological weapons Iraq had; most of them, they got from the US. (Think Iran Iraq war - 1980-1987. Invasion of Kuwait = summer of 1990.)

Speaking of "red pilling"? Do you think I believe for a minute that airplanes brought down the world trade center? Do you think I believe that was organized by a guy with kidney failure sitting in a cave on a lap top in a country that doesn't have .... F-in electricity?

In winter of 1997, when I received a letter from the DOD telling me to be ready to be recalled because of Desert Fox; the nightmares started. After about 4 months of going down hill psychologically; I ended up inpatient psych ward for a month, and then a month after discharge, went into a day treatment program for 3 months.

I did manage to go back to work when my employer disability ran out. Eventually I got well enough to go back full time.

I got married in 1999. Our son was born in January 2002. Within 8 months, we knew he was developmentally disabled. He was diagnosed with epilepsy at 3 years old. We still don't know what exactly he's got. He's going for genetic testing now. What ever it is; it appears to be a form of epilepsy the medical community is not familiar with.

Desert Storm = the gift that keeps giving!

We've been in the hospital and the ER so many times now that I've lost count. He has calcium deposits in his brain, difficulty with balance and walking, memory problems and "autism". He won't get a high school diploma, can't hold down a job in the conventional work force. He'll never drive a car, never be able to live independently.

In 2010 we were in a catastrophic car accident that left me permanently mobility impaired. I walk with crutches and I have a wheelchair. I lost an eye in that accident and had a traumatic brain injury.

Husband had two affairs during this time. (He was injured too. So was our son. The kid had a head injury in the car accident also.) We got home from a month of being in the hospital and husband told me he didn't love me any more and eventually threw me and his disabled son out of the apartment. We left about a year after the accident.

We lived separately for 6 years although not even legally separated; where all he did was take me to court and complain about the kid having an xBox and being afraid to get in the car with him. (He was the one driving during the accident.) The judge asked if the kid was in counseling? I said yes. (He still is.) But dad would never show up to the appointments. Never paid a dime of child support; had a very strained relationship with the kid; but all of that was somehow my fault?

Husband filed for divorce in February of 2017 so he could marry girlfriend #2. She broke up with him on March 5th and he committed suicide that night. Cops came to my door Sunday afternoon; said they'd found his body. His employer called the police after he didn't show up for work two shifts in a row; which was unusual because he always went to work.

So DON'T whine to me about people suffering on this planet!

Where was God in all of this?

He gave me a dad that did everything he could to try and protect his daughters. We were "notable" enough to stay on the radar of CPS. (This was the 1970's).

He kept me from getting killed in the war!

He also protected me from having to kill anyone else!

He kept me from jumping off the bridge! He gave me doctors and nurses that could help me get better. I still have PTSD. Life is managed; it isn't cured!

God allowed me to be born in a nation that gave my son SSI, Medicaid, early intervention and special education services. My kid can talk today because he had some speech pathologists who knew what they were doing! He's had some phenomenal school teachers. One nightmare aide and a whole lot of in between. He's had some outstanding doctors and some horrendous doctors.

God gave us a family court judge that listened to my son.

God gave me doctors during the accident that could help me get better! I'm alive today because God gave us the technology to invent Mercy Flight and civilian hospitals have benefited greatly because of medical techniques learned on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm here today because by God's providence I lived close enough to a level 4 trauma center that I didn't die before they got me to the hospital. I was so "out of it" from drugs and the head injury that I was sure Jesus was walking around the hospital. The ICU called a chaplain.

God gave us Habitat for Humanity. Which built me and my son a house!

God moved the Veteran's Administration to (after 25 years) service connect me for injuries inquired as a result of Desert Storm. I'm 100% service connected at this point.

By His providence; we were born in a nation that has Social Security. My son collects on his father's social security number, now that his father is deceased.

By God's providence. My husband's divorce paperwork never made it to the judge before his death certificate made it to the county clerks office. So; myself and his son, got his estate. His greedy (6 figure income) brother and the girlfriend didn't.

God has preserved my life; restored my sanity and has given me the strength to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

You want to know where God is? THAT'S WHERE HE IS!

Do I believe my brother will end up under God's wrath? Probably; seeing how it doesn't look like God has any intention to save him!

Is my mother in hell? Probably; seeing how there was no evidence that God ever saved her.

Is my dad in hell? I don't know? I will leave to God's providence what He did in dad's heart the night he died. Dad did believe in God; but like a lot of people; struggled with how pervasive and destructive sin is in this world. I was not there when he died.

Is my husband in hell? Probably; seeing how there is no evidence God ever saved him either.

My son is a believer; he demonstrated that faith in God is real to him when he went to the ER at 14 years old because it looked like he was having a stroke. He has a cluster of malformed blood vessels in his brain. The incident that night was diagnosed as a "complex migraine". It was either that or a seizure. The malformation in his brain had not ruptured.

He has faced subsequent trips to the ER with the comfort that if he dies; the next "person" he will see is Jesus. He has a calmness about himself and his mortality that I certainly didn't have about my mortality at his age.

Welcome Home! My Mini AutoBiography Chapter 1: Experience Strength & Hope, a bible fanfic | FanFiction

 

[Hawkins]

I stopped reading at “kill them all and let God sort it out”... I’m fine with the explanation that god wanted them killed because their nation attacked Moses... I’m just saying that’s immoral. You can’t punish people for crimes committed by someone else.

If you would take hell into consideration, then it's you who are in the immoral band.

 

[Hawkins]

I see it as a test about the argument of authority (the Bible is 100% true because it says it is) and faith vs human reasoning (1 Corinthians 3:18-19).

Not true. Human reasoning is not reliable because humans don't have enough intelligence while humans choose to rely heavily on their lame intelligence. That's the issue.

For the same reason, the more intelligent fallen angels will assure humans that they can rely on their low intelligence to make a decision (such as who's good or evil). (a prophecy from Genesis, the day you eat of it the same day you shall surely die)

For that matter God's choice is to save those with faith (a wisdom), may not those with human intelligence (low intelligence with no wisdom).

 

[ChristopherHays]

I just saw the Joker movie recently on pay-per-view, and like you, I was a little taken aback. However, I did think Phoenix's rendition of the Joker character was compelling, even if the story-line, on the whole, was a little-bit-less than what I'd usually expect from DC. (I mean, where was the whole motif of Arthur falling into a vat of chemicals and becoming brilliantly deranged ... Oh. I see. In this film, "Society" served as the vat. )

The casting was pretty good. He was Way better than the suicide squad joker for sure. Didn’t like the story though lol

 

[ChristopherHays]

I think that the parts of the Bible you don't like or believe could be a test to see how black and white and irrational people are capable of being. e.g. some Christians would try to justify why it seems that most people are going to hell, possibly forever, and yet God is absolutely perfectly loving and just...
or that the gospel genealogies are somehow 100% historical - even though it gives two different fathers for Shealtiel, etc.
The Genealogies of Jesus


I'm saying that the intelligent force wants atheists to feel justified in atheism based on their own reasoning. My reasoning is quite paradoxical and not black and white.


If the religious books talk about the supernatural I think delusion and hallucinations are a more likely explanation than supernatural events.


Maybe a large proportion isn't inspired. I think the amount of injust commands and apparent contradictions is a lot worse than I would expect from a book with purely human origins. See also:
Why YEC can seem plausible

So you’re saying the Bible has so many Contradictions and immoral commands that it had to be written by god? Again it sounds like you’re saying ‘aliens couldn’t hide their existence this good if they weren’t real’
Why keep looking for knowledge in a book that obviously has moral wrongs and errors?

 

[ChristopherHays]

If you would take hell into consideration, then it's you who are in the immoral band.

Why? Killing babies is moral if there’s a hell? I’m not following...

 

[ChristopherHays]

My mother was a 10 to 12 beers a night alcoholic for as long as I can remember. She quit drinking the last 2 to 3 weeks of her life and died of lung cancer at 57 years old.

My brother is a pedophile. I was sexually abused between 4 and 10 years old. There are at least 6 other victims (including my two other sisters) of his that I'm aware of. He hasn't stopped. Never came to the attention of the police and he's a fireman in city fire district. If I were a "gamblin' (wo)man" I'd take it to Vagas right now that he's sexually abused his daughters.

I'd contacted an investigator at one point over photos dad found in his bedroom of some of my brother's other victims. (We didn't recognize any of these girls.) The cop said that based on the information I had, the age of the photos, the statute of limitation had run out and unless a current victim comes forward; the police can't do anything.

I'm also a war veteran. I scraped dead Iraqis out of tank treads after Desert Storm. I was exposed to chemical and biological weapons. We knew that even though the DOD official position was that there was no chemical or biological weapons used in Desert Storm. We had gager counters and chemical weapons detection kits and we knew the stuff we were cleaning was "hot". (I worked mostly with civilian contractors. My command sent me because everyone else was getting sick.) I got chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, vertigo, migraines and PTSD from being in the military.

I found out after I got out of the military (how I got out of the military is another story) that the chemical and biological weapons Iraq had; most of them, they got from the US. (Think Iran Iraq war - 1980-1987. Invasion of Kuwait = summer of 1990.)

Speaking of "red pilling"? Do you think I believe for a minute that airplanes brought down the world trade center? Do you think I believe that was organized by a guy with kidney failure sitting in a cave on a lap top in a country that doesn't have .... F-in electricity?

In winter of 1997, when I received a letter from the DOD telling me to be ready to be recalled because of Desert Fox; the nightmares started. After about 4 of going down hill psychologically; I ended up inpatient psych ward for a month, and then a month after discharge, went into a day treatment program for 3 months.

I did manage to go back to work when my employer disability ran out. Eventually I got well enough to go back full time.

I got married in 1999. Our son was born in January 2002. Within 8 months, we knew he was developmentally disabled. He was diagnosed with epilepsy at 3 years old. We still don't know what exactly he's got. He's going for genetic testing now. What ever it is; it appears to be a form of epilepsy the medical community is not familiar with.

Desert Storm = the gift that keeps giving!

We've been in the hospital and the ER so many times now that I've lost count. He has calcium deposits in his brain, difficulty with balance and walking, memory problems and "autism". He won't get a high school diploma, can't hold down a job in the conventional work force. He'll never drive a car, never be able to live independently.

In 2010 we were in a catastrophic car accident that left me permanently mobility impaired. I walk with crutches and I have a wheelchair. I lost an eye in that accident and had a traumatic brain injury.

Husband had two affairs during this time. (He was injured too. So was our son. The kid had a head injury in the car accident also.) We got home from a month of being in the hospital and husband told me he didn't love me any more and eventually threw me and his disabled son out of the apartment. We left about a year after the accident.

We lived separately for 6 years although not even legally separated; where all he did was take me to court and complain about the kid having an xBox and being afraid to get in the car with him. (He was the one driving during the accident.) The judge asked if the kid was in counseling? I said yes. (He still is.) But dad would never show up to the appointments. Never paid a dime of child support; had a very strained relationship with the kid; but all of that was somehow my fault?

Husband filed for divorce in February of 2017 so he could marry girlfriend #2. She broke up with him on March 5th and he committed suicide that night. Cops came to my door Sunday afternoon; said they'd found his body. His employer called the police after he didn't show up for work two shifts in a row; which was unusual because he always went to work.

So DON'T whine to me about people suffering on this planet!

Where was God in all of this?

He gave me a dad that did everything he could to try and protect his daughters. We were "notable" enough to stay on the radar of CPS. (This was the 1970's).

He kept me from getting killed in the war!

He also protected me from having to kill anyone else!

He kept me from jumping off the bridge! He gave me doctors and nurses that could help me get better. I still have PTSD. Life is managed; it isn't cured!

God allowed me to be born in a nation that gave my son SSI, Medicaid, early intervention and special education services. My kid can talk today because he had some speech pathologists who knew what they were doing! He's had some phenomenal school teachers. One nightmare aide and a whole lot of in between. He's had some outstanding doctors and some horrendous doctors.

God gave us a family court judge that listened to my son.

God gave me doctors during the accident that could help me get better! I'm alive today because God gave us the technology to invent Mercy Flight and civilian hospitals have benefited greatly because of medical techniques learned on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm here today because by God's providence I lived close enough to a level 4 trauma center that I didn't die before they got me to the hospital. I was so "out of it" from drugs and the head injury that I was sure Jesus was walking around the hospital. The ICU called a chaplain.

God gave us Habitat for Humanity. Which built me and my son a house!

God moved the Veteran's Administration to (after 25 years) service connect me for injuries inquired as a result of Desert Storm. I'm 100% service connected at this point.

By His providence; we were born in a nation that has Social Security. My son collects on his father's social security number, now that his father is deceased.

By God's providence. My husband's divorce paperwork never made it to the judge before his death certificate made it to the county clerks office. So; myself and his son, got his estate. His greedy (6 figure income) brother and the girlfriend didn't.

God has preserved my life; restored my sanity and has given me the strength to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

You want to know where God is? THAT'S WHERE HE IS!

Do I believe my brother will end up under God's wrath? Probably; seeing how hit doesn't look like God has any intention to save him!

Is my mother in hell? Probably; seeing how there was no evidence that God ever saved her.

Is my dad in hell? I don't know? I will leave to God's providence what He did in dad's heart the night he died. I was not there when he died.

Is my husband in hell? Probably; seeing how there is no evidence God ever saved him either.

My son is a believer; he demonstrated that faith in God is real to him when he went to the ER at 14 years old because it looked like he was having a stroke. He has a cluster of malformed blood vessels in his brain. The incident that night was diagnosed as a "complex migraine". It was either that or a seizure. The malformation in his brain had not ruptured.

He has faced subsequent trips to the ER with the comfort that if he dies; the next "person" he will see is Jesus. He has a calmness about himself and his mortality that I certainly didn't have about my mortality at his age.

Welcome Home! My Mini AutoBiography Chapter 1: Experience Strength & Hope, a bible fanfic | FanFiction

I appreciate your openness and your strength. My sister with Down’s syndrome lives with me. I know every diagnosis is different, but I understand how truly hard it can be. I’m sure you’ve also found it rewarding as I have. She was born with a hole in her heart and requires semiannual open heart surgeries, but she enjoys living more than anyone I know. I thank the amazing doctors for giving her that opportunity. I’m not a veteran myself, but I’m extremely proud to own a business that employs nothing but veterans. I’m actually still the only one on our team that wasn’t in desert storm. I honestly do have the utmost respect and appreciation for your service.

I hope you know I wasn’t “whining” when I shared my story. It’s not about who’s had it worse. At the end of the day we’ve both been through things we’d never wish on anyone. We’re not going to agree on god or the afterlife, but I think we can still respect each other’s journey and position.

I hope you and your son have a wonderful new year!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Why? Killing babies is moral if there’s a hell? I’m not following...

Because maybe the point is that those who do so out of their own beliefs in their self righteousness are really the ones under judgement! God described Israel as "morally bankrupt above all other nations".

Could it possibly be that the test was not for the people who were being killed as much as it was for those who were doing the killing; even though God told them to do it? Why do the wicked prosper. The earthly life of any man is but a vapor. We are all like the grass; here today and gone tomorrow.

Yet we all still have eternity to contend with!

Maybe in the end; the "joke" was on Israel; not the kids of the people of Amelak?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I hope you know I wasn’t “whining” when I shared my story.

No, you are whining. You're whining against God. Why? Because you think no one should suffer in this world? Well why not? What makes you think that you or anyone else should be exempt from it?

If the Father willing to forsake His own Son; and allow the only human on earth who NEVER sinned to endure His own wrath for a bunch of sinners who hate God to begin with.... why should He spare you (or any of us) from suffering?

You can stand there all you want and shake your fist at the only One who could actually help you and give you purpose in life; and see when you die where that gets you!

Or maybe you could exercise a little humility and say: "Gee God, maybe I've misjudged the meaning of life on this planet? Maybe I have a lot to learn?"

 

[ChristopherHays]

No, you are whining. You're whining against God. Why? Because you think no one should suffer in this world? Well why not? What makes you think that you or anyone else should be exempt from it?

If the Father willing to forsake His own Son; and allow the only human on earth who NEVER sinned to endure His own wrath for a bunch of sinners who hate God to begin with.... why should He spare you (or any of us) from suffering?

You can stand there all you want and shake your fist at the only One who could actually help you and give you purpose in life; and see when you die where that gets you!

Or maybe you could exercise a little humility and say: "Gee God, maybe I've misjudged the meaning of life on this planet? Maybe I have a lot to learn?"

How would you feel if I said you’re whining about your disabled son? I would never say anything so insulting! Just as I said before, I respect your strength and your willingness to share your story. I was more than happy to accept our differences and part ways on that note... but now you’re telling me I’m whining about my dead brothers and my disabled sister??? How am I supposed to respond to that?

Of course I don’t think anyone should suffer. I try every day to ease the suffering in this world. These are legitimate issues people struggle with and they deserve to be discussed with gentleness and respect.

 

[JohnClay]

So you’re saying the Bible has so many Contradictions and immoral commands that it had to be written by god?

Well it is consistent with my idea that the Bible is a test involving extreme contradictions and moral problems. Besides Islam, are you aware of any religious or cult beliefs that have contradictions and morality that are as problematic as that in the Abrahamic religions?
Besides this:

Again it sounds like you’re saying ‘aliens couldn’t hide their existence this good if they weren’t real’
Why keep looking for knowledge in a book that obviously has moral wrongs and errors?

As far as things like the Virgin Birth and Resurrection go, I've stopped looking into it any further. I suspect they aren't literal but it isn't that big of a deal if they are literal.

 

[The Righterzpen]

How would you feel if I said you’re whining about your disabled son? I would never say anything so insulting! Just as I said before, I respect your strength and your willingness to share your story. I was more than happy to accept our differences and part ways on that note... but now you’re telling me I’m whining about my dead brothers and my disabled sister??? How am I supposed to respond to that?

Of course I don’t think anyone should suffer. I try every day to ease the suffering in this world. These are legitimate issues people struggle with and they deserve to be discussed with gentleness and respect.

Except I'm not the one shaking my fist at God screaming it's unfair my son is disabled!

So what are these legitimate issues you speak of that people (you) are struggling with? That people suffer? Whether you think people should suffer or not is immaterial; they do. We don't live in a world where there is no suffering. (And I agree with you that we should do what we can to ease suffering.)

Yet you speak of evolution and how you think (unless I'm misunderstanding what you said about abortion) that it's "justifiable" in some cases?

That is the utmost apex of hypocrisy. You rage against a God you claim doesn't even exist over killing babies in the Old Testament; yet your OK with ripping them out of the womb now? What about your sister; (or my son) should they have been aborted because they are "a drain on society"? Where's your moral superiority here? Are you only "morally superior" when you feel the need to rail against God for people dying?

Why aren't you raging against our "evolutionary process" over the existence of suffering? Why is it God's fault your brothers died? Maybe "evolution" just didn't mean for them to live? Or what about your sister. Where's your rage against "evolution" that made her "less evolved"?

Here today; gone tomorrow! Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! That's what the Greeks believed. Why worry about suffering? Why have compassion on anyone? "Survival of the fittest"; you know? If there's no afterlife and no accountability for anything; so who cares?

But..... there's not a lot of hope in that though now - is there?

(Like there's more satisfaction in getting mad at a God you swear doesn't exist? Why waste the energy?)

What's the purpose of your life? Why are you here?

 

[ChristopherHays]

Except I'm not the one shaking my fist at God screaming it's unfair my son is disabled!

So what are these legitimate issues you speak of that people (you) are struggling with? That people suffer? Whether you think people should suffer or not is immaterial; they do. We don't live in a world where there is no suffering. (And I agree with you that we should do what we can to ease suffering.)

The age old question is ‘if god is good, why is there suffering?’ It’s a serious question that deserves honesty and respect. There are no satisfying answers with a theistic worldview in my experience.

Yet you speak of evolution and how you think (unless I'm misunderstanding what you said about abortion) that it's "justifiable" in some cases?

I don’t support abortion at all and I’ve stated that clearly (although it’s more complicated than most Christians admit) I think it’s horrible to abort special needs babies. They’re absolutely not a “drain on society.” I actively campaign against screening to kill downs babies. We have so much to learn from people like this. I said before, that my sister enjoys life more than anyone I know. She’s a great role model to anyone who’d take the time to know her. I’m a bit offended you’re assuming I support abortion just because I don’t believe in your god.

Why aren't you raging against our "evolutionary process" over the existence of suffering? Why is it God's fault your brothers died? Maybe "evolution" just didn't mean for them to live? Or what about your sister. Where's your rage against "evolution" that made her "less evolved"?

Here today; gone tomorrow! Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! That's what the Greeks believed. Why worry about suffering? Why have compassion on anyone? "Survival of the fittest"; you know? If there's no afterlife and no accountability for anything; so who cares?

I do believe it’s nature’s fault that babies die. It makes sense with evolution. It’s still terrible, but at least I understand why it happens. If God exists then I don’t understand why it happens. God could stop it but wants us to suffer?

Isn’t ‘eat drink and be marry’ originally paraphrased from Ecclesiastes? That’s my favorite book of the Bible. It actually deals with the issue of suffering with honesty and humility... for this reason it’s rarely quoted in the pulpit.

But..... there's not a lot of hope in that though now - is there?

(Like there's more satisfaction in getting mad at a God you swear doesn't exist? Why waste the energy?)

What's the purpose of your life? Why are you here?

I accept I don’t have a Devine purpose, but my life has incredible meaning. I get to share the joys of life with my sister. I get to give extremely deserving veterans good pay for honest work. I get to explore and make discoveries that will help the next generation. I believe we can make this life something of a paradise if we work together and actually try.

 

[JohnClay]

The age old question is ‘if god is good, why is there suffering?’ It’s a serious question that deserves honesty and respect. There are no satisfying answers with a theistic worldview in my experience......

Even though you can't understand how a good God can allow suffering for a few dozen years on earth, there are pastors who think God actively sending people to hell forever is truly glorious...

 

[The Righterzpen]

The age old question is ‘if god is good, why is there suffering?’

Answer: Because the suffering ultimately leads to something good. (Which you may never see that in this life; so one exercises patients even if the outcome isn't known until the other side of eternity.)

There are no satisfying answers with a theistic worldview in my experience.

Because you lack the patients to "wait and see"; as well as the humility to admit that you don't have the answer.

I don’t support abortion at all

That's good.

I think it’s horrible to abort special needs babies. They’re absolutely not a “drain on society.” I actively campaign against screening to kill downs babies. We have so much to learn from people like this. I said before, that my sister enjoys life more than anyone I know. She’s a great role model to anyone who’d take the time to know her.

All life has value. Yes, agree.

I’m a bit offended you’re assuming I support abortion just because I don’t believe in your god.

(although it’s more complicated than most Christians admit)

And what is "more complicated than most Christians admit"?

I do believe it’s nature’s fault that babies die. It makes sense with evolution. It’s still terrible, but at least I understand why it happens.

So why does it happen? If it's just something that "happens by chance" than it's purposeless; which is the same thing you rail at God over; (the purposelessness of certain people dying).

Yet... you're not mad at nature, but your mad at a God you allegedly don't believe exists?

If God exists then I don’t understand why it happens.

Why does God's existence mean this should not happen? Why should we be exempt from suffering? I've heard people in AA complain: "Why me?" And the best answer is: "Why not you?" Are you some how special that you shouldn't become an alcoholic? Is there something about you that should exempt you from suffering? The "disease" of alcoholism doesn't care who you are. Sin is an equal opportunity employer.

I spent about the first 10 years of my son's life studying psychology articles and doing research on what makes pedophiles? Now I can recite the patterns psychology has come to recognize in what contributes environmentally to pedophilia. I know the behavior patterns. I know how to spot a pedophile by the behavior patterns. (This aspect of it gets into profiling.) I knew what to look out for to protect my son.

But can I give you an answer on why that happens? Why did my brother become a pedophile? No, I can't. It's a combination of "family systems" environmental factors and choices he made. That is the "psychology answer" to the question. Yet my dad also grew up with a brother that was a sex addict. My dad hated his brother. But dad never became a sex offender! What of the internal state of the soul; made my brother a pedophile and my father not? I will never know that; because it's not possible for me to "live in" someone else's soul!

And so thus; here is the conclusion: In eternity, that question is no longer relevant! It won't matter. So why worry about it in this life? I'd obtained enough information in the first 10 years of my child's life to successfully protect him. And now he has skills to make decisions for himself for the purpose of not bringing him harm.

Does this not mean my son hasn't suffered in other ways. Most certainly not; because he has. It's just he doesn't have that demon to battle!

Not understanding why something happens (or doesn't happen) requires the humility to accept that you may never have that answer. And for me; it was very freeing to realize that in eternity - "knowing" will not and does not matter!

God could stop it but wants us to suffer?

You said your sister goes though heart surgery every so often. And the consequence being that if she didn't; she would die. Yet she "suffers" through the surgery! Because why? Because there is a greater good on the other side of that suffering!

Have you ever watched a baby bird hatch? They peck and struggle and kick to get out of that egg. But if you "help" them; they will die because they have to go through the struggle of hatching to survive outside of the egg! What may seem like an act of mercy to you (helping them out of the egg); is lethal to the bird!

Does God want us to suffer? YES! Because there is a greater point to it!

Isn’t ‘eat drink and be marry’ originally paraphrased from Ecclesiastes?

"Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." is a bastardized compilation of a couple of different concepts (some found in the Bible) smushed together to make a philosophy that gives a reason for life outside of faith. If there is no God; there is nothing to be accountable for so: "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." Paul quotes a similar philosophical bent as an example to the gentiles. (The concept comes from Greek philosophy; even if parts of the wording is borrowed from Ecclesiastes.) Paul's point is this philosophy is empty. (It's "vanity" to use language from Ecclesiastes.)

All that we pursue in this life is empty if there is nothing on the other side of death. Thus: "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." You can be a "good person" but there is no point in being a "good person" if you're not accountable to anything. So please self / "survival of the fittest". Most people don't live that way though. (And why not.) Because of moral accountability. They feel morally accountable to something they don't understand and even "Something" they claim not to believe. There are a lot of "atheists" out there; but very few "practicing atheists". Because a practicing atheist is a psychopathic / sociopathic criminal who believes rules don't apply to them. That is the ultimate end of where that line of reason goes.

That’s my favorite book of the Bible. It actually deals with the issue of suffering with honesty and humility... for this reason it’s rarely quoted in the pulpit.

Did you grow up in a "church environment" where there was a lot of hypocrisy? Is this why you're mad at God?

What did your parents and grandparents say about your brothers dying? Did they have no answer for it and your mother just fell into this black hole of depression that she never got out of? And your dad was struggling to make sense of this and your grandparents step in to help out. You're probably the oldest right; and the last child your mother had was your sister with Down's syndrome.

You came from some sort of "religious back ground" (correct)? (I thought you said you once believed? You obviously have knowledge of the Bible. And your parents and / or grandparents answer was "I don't know." Life threw your parents a bunch of curve balls; your mother got sucked into a black hole and you got lost in the shuffle. Is that what happened?

And now your (still) mad at God because you don't have any answers for why all that happened?

Does this struggle sound familiar?

I accept I don’t have a Devine purpose, but my life has incredible meaning. I get to share the joys of life with my sister. I get to give extremely deserving veterans good pay for honest work. I get to explore and make discoveries that will help the next generation. I believe we can make this life something of a paradise if we work together and actually try.

Then why are you mad at God?

 

[ChristopherHays]

“And what (about abortion) is more complicated than most Christians are willing to admit?”

This is a very tricky issue and I don’t want to get into all of it... I believe babies are humans even in the womb, therefore they deserve the same constitutional right to life as every other human. This issue is way more complicated since the recent gene editing breakthroughs. Over 10,000 previously untreatable diseases could be cured with just the next development in this technology. It’s likely this would’ve saved my three brothers, my sister wouldn’t have a hole in her heart, and millions of dead and suffering children would be cured... But there’s a problem. This technology requires testing on human embryos. I heard that the embryos would need less than 1% the number of cells in a fly’s brain. Is it moral to kill a certain amount of these embryos (developing babies) to save the lives of millions of children? I don’t want to be the one making that decision.


This is different than just killing embryos because you don’t want to raise kids though... even if gene editing does kill embryos at least it’s with good intentions. The other part of this debate that gets complicated is the biblical stance on abortion. I see clearly that god not only approves, but commands the abortion of bastard children. You can read about this in numbers chapter 5. I encourage you to read the whole chapter, but I’ll highlight a few verses below

“... if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— then he is to take his wife to the priest... (the priest) shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water...“ (remember the tabernacle is where animals are regularly slaughtered. It’s likely this floor had feces, blood, maggots, and countless germs even if cleaned often)
“If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries... this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

This is basically a ritual curse to force the woman to miscarry. I don’t think I need to explain why I find this appalling.




“Then why are you mad at God?“

I’m not mad at god.

 

[A_Thinker]

The age old question is ‘if god is good, why is there suffering?’

Because ... ALL is not God ... or good.

If nothing else, ... life in this world can be the motivation for SOME of humanity ... to ASPIRE to SOMETHING GREATER, ... whether belief in a PERFECT God, ... or, more generally, the possibilities of leaving behind the elements of IMPERFECTION we currently face.

So, hopefully, ... we jettison slavery, and inequality, ... and aspire to grow adequate food for the world's population, ... and strategize paths to peace, but sometimes, go to war, ... just to protect one another.

We attempt to CURE harmful addictions, various diseases, we reach to the stars, we crave knowledge of everything around us ... and the wisdom to utilize our world to its best affect on ourselves and others.

We create beauty ... and make joyful ... and sorrowful music. We laugh, we cry, we live, we die, ... all in HOPE ... of a BETTER life.

Without our afflictions, we would never move forward. Our moralities, intelligence, and emotions would remain stunted. We would be satisfied.

But SOME of us are NOT. In truth, SOME of us are content ... to PLUNDER from this life all that they can ... giving little thought or provision to the state of the world ... or the lives of those around.

But SOME of us WILL GIVE of OURSELVES to this WORLD ... and our NEIGHBORS ... so that we ALL might live better lives TOMORROW ... than we did yesterday.

 

[The Righterzpen]

“And what (about abortion) is more complicated than most Christians are willing to admit?”

This is a very tricky issue and I don’t want to get into all of it... I believe babies are humans even in the womb, therefore they deserve the same constitutional right to life as every other human. This issue is way more complicated since the recent gene editing breakthroughs. Over 10,000 previously untreatable diseases could be cured with just the next development in this technology. It’s likely this would’ve saved my three brothers, my sister wouldn’t have a hole in her heart, and millions of dead and suffering children would be cured... But there’s a problem. This technology requires testing on human embryos. I heard that the embryos would need less than 1% the number of cells in a fly’s brain. Is it moral to kill a certain amount of these embryos (developing babies) to save the lives of millions of children? I don’t want to be the one making that decision.

With enough understanding of various methods of gene editing would make the moral issue of having to test this on human embryos obsolete. 20 years ago people were all over this fetal stem cells to try and cure disease; only to find out adult stem cells (which don't require killing anyone to collect) are much more effective! So with time (if gene editing is even possible) there's a way around the moral dilemma of it.

Yet to cure a major genetic issue like Down's Syndrome; would require that the editing happen at conception. Because the "big error" occurs at the first joining of the two sets of chromosomes. And the extra genetic material can come from either the mother or the father. Something goes awry in the copying process that makes two sets of one gene. Why the natural gene replication system that corrects genetic issues does not catch this; no one knows.

How the mechanism that corrects genetic issues operates is not well understood either. We do know though that over the course of one day, of each individual's life; the gene replication system corrects millions of genetic errors; (which includes breaks and switching of genetic material into the wrong place). DNA is a very fragile substance and constantly needs repairing. It's miraculous there aren't more genetic errors in all of us.

This is different than just killing embryos because you don’t want to raise kids though... even if gene editing does kill embryos at least it’s with good intentions.

And why is this any more "morally superior" than God allowing (or even directly causing) infants deaths because there is a greater good in the end? You rail against God for something you yourself justify?

The other part of this debate that gets complicated is the biblical stance on abortion. I see clearly that god not only approves, but commands the abortion of bastard children. You can read about this in numbers chapter 5. I encourage you to read the whole chapter, but I’ll highlight a few verses below

Yet if she is not guilty of sin; then the false accusation is on the husband. God being omniscient; don't you think He knows whether or not she's innocent? So if she is innocent her child's life is preserved; if she is guilty, it is her own sin that has caused this, not God.

How often does our own sin bring about our destruction? Yet you seek to lay the destruction portion of it as God's doing? Which again goes back to the issue of "whining" about suffering. Why do you think any of us should be exempt when none of us are innocent?

Suffering has at least two aspects to it:
1. It's necessary to make one resilient. (Your sister's surgeries or the bird hatching from the egg example.)
2. It's a consequence of what we've done to ourselves. (The alcoholic gets cirrhosis of the liver. The thief breaks in and the home owner shoots him dead.)

Jesus answered another aspect of this question when raised by (I think they were pharisees) over why a certain man was born blind. (Was it his sin, or his parents' sin?) Jesus said it was neither; but that this happened for the glory of God and then He healed the guy.

Which just like I stated before; there are some things that happen that seem bad to you in this life; but are for God's greater glory on the other side. And just because you don't see the results immediately, doesn't mean the greater good is not a real outcome later on.

I’m not mad at god.

Then why do you expend all this energy accusing God of evil? Why can't you accept that suffering has a greater purpose in the end?