The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Jord Simcha]

Wow. That is so funny. Where I come from 86'd is to be given the boot. Seems that it means that to you as well.

86 is also the numerical value of Elohim, one of God's titles in Hebrew.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

86 is also the numerical value of Elohim, one of God's titles in Hebrew.

There are no coincidences in God's kingdom. Just one more proof that the HS endorses the larger hope...for those with eyes to see.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Fine: No thanks. Universalism is what it is:
1)

2 Timothy 2:14 NIV
[ Dealing With False Teachers ] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.​

2) is in opposition to this truth:

1 Chronicles 28:9 YLT
…. for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.​

Dear Twin: I wish you well as you journey into Him. May His exceedingly abundant love and grace be yours!

 

[Saint Steven]

What would become of you if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day and then sat down and said to God, "Okay, I'm ready to listen to you now. Talk to me.", what would happen? Would he leave you alone, or speak to you audibly for the first time? Would that be worth it, or would you prefer to keep your library instead?

It occurred to me this morning that this was a test like with Abraham and Isaac.

Genesis 22:7-8
Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It occurred to me this morning that this was a test like with Abraham and Isaac.

Genesis 22:7-8
Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

Now you're talking to yourself, Steve!

You could well be right. We draw nearer to God each time we take a leap of faith and give up things we're attached to (idols).

But hey, isn't the translation there better as "God will provide the lamb Himself..." See how that works?

 

[d taylor]

Only those in Christ. And we say all will accept Christ, either in this world or the next. Every knee shall bow.



Not so. The sinners are defined by their sins at the GWTJ. See Rev 21:8:

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."




The word 'death' is used in various ways in the Bible and Rev in particular. Can signify physically dead, or dead in Christ, or dead to Christ.

The aim of the second death is to kill death generally. Which means to give life. If death is killed, only life remains (by elimination!). So the lake of fire kills death and sin (that causes death).

That's why we see the nations who get zapped in Rev 20:9 or presumably chucked in the LoF as unbelievers in Rev 20:15 emerge repentant and worshipful in Rev 21:24-26, and get healing by the tree of life in Rev 22:2. It's because the judgment is they need a good cleaning up.



What a shame brother, you know the earthly truth, but you think God gives up on His creation? That's what the cross is all about - it's God guaranteeing us He'll go further to save than the devil can go to destroy. His love doesn't quit just because we do. What a petty deity that would be lol.

As all things came from God, so too shall all things return to Him.

You can twist Revelation 20 to fit your belief but the Bible states they are judged by their works.

‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.

 

[Saint Steven]

Now you're talking to yourself, Steve!

Good. I was hoping someone would make that connection. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Now you're talking to yourself, Steve!

You could well be right. We draw nearer to God each time we take a leap of faith and give up things we're attached to (idols).

But hey, isn't the translation there better as "God will provide the lamb Himself..." See how that works?

Let's pray that God confirms that prophecy to Charlie. This is an opportunity to grow.
Like removing the life preserver and discovering that you can swim without it.

 

[FineLinen]

Martin Luther

"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."

(Martin Luther’s letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

In the conclusion of (The bondage of the will) Martin Luther wrote

“Even according to the testimony of reason herself there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!”

TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

 

[Saint Steven]

Martin Luther

"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."

(Martin Luther’s letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

In the conclusion of (The bondage of the will) Martin Luther wrote

“Even according to the testimony of reason herself there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!”

TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

I'll have to admit that I am still grappling with this whole free-will vs. predestination thing. It seems that both are as true as they are in conflict. But such is the nature of things. - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You can twist Revelation 20 to fit your belief but the Bible states they are judged by their works.

Now the accusations. Great.

It makes precisely zero difference whether judgment is based on works or sinfulness at the time. Fact of the matter is that God decides you've got a problem, and He needs to set you right (that's what judgment is - setting right, not getting even).

That's why the nations get cleansed and healed at the end there. If you want to deny Rev 21:24-26 describes purified and redeemed nations and Rev 22:2 tells of their healing, then we're never going to get anywhere.

‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.

Yes, that's good news. Sounds bad, but actually good.

It's Jesus quoting Isaiah 66:24 in Mk 9:48. If you read on, you might get a little more:

"For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another. (49-50)

So our Lord says EVERYONE gets some fire treatment. And it's GOOD for you, give each other the treatment, and be at PEACE.

So the worm turns. It's just prophetic rhetoric, which is scary retributive sounding language, employed for a restorative purpose. It's an idiom that occurs throughout the Bible and in many cultures to the present day.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

“Even according to the testimony of reason herself there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!”

The idea of free will is just an expression of human vanity. We can only choose whom we serve, and in the end we will choose Jesus lol.

 

[Saint Steven]

So the worm turns. It's just prophetic rhetoric, which is scary retributive sounding language, employed for a restorative purpose. It's an idiom that occurs throughout the Bible and in many cultures to the present day.

That is such an interesting connection. Thanks.
What the Damnationists consider to be the lowest lifeform, the damned, can still be turned (reformed) and corrected. God in his mercy and love sees value in EVERY created being.

This reminds me of the caste system in India. The Damnationists consider the damned to be the untouchables (lowest caste) but our God is the redeemer of all creation. The lowest of the low are in his sight and concern.

Matthew 6:26
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

 

[Saint Steven]

The idea of free will is just an expression of human vanity. We can only choose whom we serve, and in the end we will choose Jesus lol.

Well, it seems that those choices are important, pivotal in fact.
Explain why you see it as an expression of human vanity. Thanks.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What the Damnationists consider to be the lowest lifeform, the damned,

Correction, second lowest lifeform...they consider universalists to be the first.

God in his mercy and love sees value in EVERY created being.

Yes, when He opened my eyes and heart, He showed me how incredibly valuable to Him I am, we all are, through the eyes of Christ this becomes apparent daily. Why, for instance, my views on abortion, violent movies and trash talk changed instantly. To be honest, I've lost a lot of that sensitivity/ anointing, but still the core of it is indelibly retained.

Ultimately, it's that insight, compassion, care, devotion and commitment that's really the heart of it all.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well, it seems that those choices are important, pivotal in fact.
Explain why you see it as an expression of human vanity. Thanks.

Thought I just did. It's vanity to think we can freely choose anything except whom to serve, either Jesus or Satan. Augustine puts it as City of God or City of Man. The thing is that ultimately serving man/ the devil only takes us back to Christ, whether in this world or the next. So in the final analysis, it's all predetermined. Clear as mud?

 

[Saint Steven]

Correction, second lowest lifeform...they consider universalists to be the first.

I stand corrected. - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

Thought I just did. It's vanity to think we can freely choose anything except whom to serve, either Jesus or Satan. Augustine puts it as City of God or City of Man. The thing is that ultimately serving man/ the devil only takes us back to Christ, whether in this world or the next. So in the final analysis, it's all predetermined. Clear as mud?

Sorry if I am being thick-headed. As I said, I am still grappling with this. Toss me a grappling hook and I may be able to get out of this hole. - lol

We make choices constantly, and that is significant, whether human vanity or not. But I guess I was pointing at the larger issue of our destination in the afterlife. The sheep or goat decision. Granted, no one can come unless they are drawn/called, yet a decision is required.

I'm heading out the door, I'll catch up later. God bless.

 

[Oldmantook]

I'll have to admit that I am still grappling with this whole free-will vs. predestination thing. It seems that both are as true as they are in conflict. But such is the nature of things. - lol

Perhaps this synopsis will help:
Calvinism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does not want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Arminianism: God is not strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Universalism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is saved.

Quoted from David Burnfield's book Patristic Universalism which I highly recommend. Also may want to check out David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved. I haven't read this book but Hart is no slouch.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Perhaps this synopsis will help:
Calvinism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does not want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Arminianism: God is not strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Universalism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is saved.

Quoted from David Burnfield's book Patristic Universalism which I highly recommend. Also may want to check out David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved. I haven't read this book but Hart is no slouch.

My own study in the Bible indicates that God is both willing and able to save all. Thanks for contrasting the three approaches! It makes very clear why the Calvinists and Arminians debate and never reach a conclusion, having left out the win/win of God's Real Plan.