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The fatal flaw of Universalism

Saint Steven

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Lord have mercy!

God's word is the only truth there is, and you don't need it?

I am appalled at your disrespect for God's Word, while calling yourself a Christian.

I am finished with this!
Thanks for proving my point.
So you actually chose your library over a personal relationship with God? Unbelievable.

Saint Steven said:
You are making the Bible something it was never intended to be.
Do you have a relationship with a book or with the God that the book tells us about?

What would become of you if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day and then sat down and said to God, "Okay, I'm ready to listen to you now. Talk to me.", what would happen? Would he leave you alone, or speak to you audibly for the first time? Would that be worth it, or would you prefer to keep your library instead?

The problem with Evangelicalism is that they have made a god out of a book. Don't get me wrong, I love the Bible, but I understand that it is not a replacement for my relationship with the living God. Ultimately, I don't need a Bible, all I need is Him.
 
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Saint Steven

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God's word is the only truth there is, and you don't need it?
Are you talking about the Bible?
I thought Jesus was the Word of God. (John 1:1)
I thought Jesus was the truth. (John 14:6)
 
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Saint Steven

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I am appalled at your disrespect for God's Word, while calling yourself a Christian.
I am appalled that you would put a book above someone Christ died for.
Did Christ die for a book? What's more important?
 
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On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Yes, not sure if you'd want to rely on that scripture as proof for your claim that ppl choose eternal damnation by rejecting God's word. I think we have an example here of rhetoric and Paul taking the opportunity to rub salt in the wounds with the Jews who are already full of envy and pride. And indeed until those sins are overcome a person won't be able to enter the Kingdom. These are sins of selfishness, superiority, worldliness and fear/ hatred of others that need to be cleansed. Why Jesus admonishes us to "Seek ye first the Kingdom'.
 
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FineLinen

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No one is sent to the lake of fire because of their sin (crime). Jesus took away the sin of the world at the cross and resurrection.

A person goes to the lake of fire because they lack Jesus gift of Everlasting Life/Eternal Life. Why do they lack Everlasting Life because people did not believe in The Messiah for the gift of life.

They judged themselves unworthy of Eternal Life, basically they send themselves

“Eternal Punishment” is the term used in the English translation of the Bible on which most people base their view of eternal conscious torment in Hell. The term in the Greek is “kolasis aionios.” If this term does indeed mean eternal punishment, then hell would seem to be foreverrrrrrrrrr.

But, such is not the case. Let’s first consider the opinion of the great Greek scholar William Barclay, who was professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament and the very popular Daily Study Bible Series. Barclay discusses this point regarding Matthew 25:46 in his well-known autobiography:

“One of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is ‘kolasis,’ which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature ‘kolasis’ is never used of anything but ‘remedial punishment.’ The word for ‘eternal’ is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to put it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.”

Aristotle supports Barclay on the meaning of "kolasis."

The only word in the Gospels for “punishment” with regard to God punishing evildoers is “kolasis,” which according to Aristotle, who knew Greek word meanings better than anybody who ever walked the planet, said that “kolasis” is the kind of punishment which “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer,” which means it is for the betterment or improvement of the person being punished.

This is contrasted with “timoria,” which Aristotle said is the kind of punishment which is “inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” (Rhet. 1369b13).

In addition to Barclay’s opinion above, let’s consider some other respected sources about the proper translation of “aionios:"

The Rotterham Emphasized Bible translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “age abiding correction.”

Young’s Literal Translation translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “punishment age.”

The Concordant Literal Translation translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “chastening eonian," or “chastening age” in other words. Our English word “eon” derives from the Greek word “aionios.” Eon, as we use the word, speaks of ages or cycles of indeterminate amounts of time. The term is often used in the plural form, such as “It’s been eons since we’ve talked,” or “Eons ago the universe was formed.” The point is that we don’t even use the term today to refer to “everlasting” in the sense of never ending. Think how silly it sounds to pluralize “everlasting” into “everlastings," yet “eon” is pluralized into “eons” all the time.

The best translators of the New Testament Greek text would be the Greek fathers of the church over the first 500 years. They were Christian. They were scholars. They lived nearest to the time the New Testament was written and would have a better grasp of the grammatical nuances and cultural linguistics of recent generations. Koine Greek was a lost language for hundreds of years and it is somewhat presumptuous for modern scholars to think they know Biblical Greek better than did the Greek-speaking Church fathers.

The Church fathers and writers who used the term “aionios” in their writings to refer to an indefinite “age” and not to an “unending” or “everlasting” eternity are: Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hermogones, Origen, Eusebius, Gregory of Nyssa, and Avitus.

“Eternity (Greek Aionios) signifies in Scripture sometimes the fact that we do not know the end, sometimes the fact that there is no end in the present world, but there will be one in the next. Sometimes eternity means a certain length of time, even that of a human life.” (Origen, Commentary on Romans, Book 6, section 5).

The Emperor Justinian in A.D. 540 tried to extinguish Origen’s teachings by defining Catholic doctrine at that time.

“The Holy Church of Christ teaches an endless aionios (ATELEUTETOS aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.” Aionios was not enough in his judgment to denote endless duration, so he employed ateleutetos.

The point is that “aionios” by itself did not mean “everlasting.” It needed to be strengthened with another word to in fact mean “endless,” like “ateleutetos.”

Jews who were contemporaries with Christ, but who wrote in Greek, show that “aionios” was not used to mean “everlasting.” Josephus the historian used “aionios” to refer to temples which were already destroyed (and thus not “everlasting”), indeterminate prison sentences and time lapses between historical events. He never used the word to denote “everlasting,” but rather to mean an indeterminate period or season. The Jewish writer Philo always used the words athanaton, ateleuteton or aidion to denote endless and aionion for temporary duration.

Augustine, who struggled mightily with Greek, claimed for years that the only meaning of “aionios” was “everlasting,” yet even he had to acknowledge his error when visited by the Spanish presbyter Orosius, who convinced Augustine of his error. Augustine relented, but only to the extent that “aionios” did not only mean “everlasting.” Augustine still believed it means “everlasting” with regard to Hell.

To summarize then, Greek word “Aionios,” which is sometimes translated as “everlasting” in Scripture (as in “everlasting punishment”), does NOT in fact mean "unending or everlasting in quantity of time."

Rather, “Aionios” speaks to an “indeterminate age set by God alone.” The word refers to a certain quality (not quantity) of being - - whether it be “aionios life” or “aionios remedial-punishment.” Aionios is always qualified by what it is describing.

For instance, the word “great,” when applied to a merciful sentence imposed by a kind-hearted judge, might refer to a small amount of time in jail. Conversely, “great,” when applied to an atrocious crime, for which the judge “throws the book” at the defendant, might refer to a life-sentence in jail.

Similarly, the nature and quality of aionios, applied to the life of God, is entirely different than when it is applied to the chastening or punishment of God. “GREAT life” in God is certainly unending, since death will have been completely defeated, but the unending length is not the primary essence of that “GREAT life.” Rather, the limitless quality of love and peace which come from being totally at one with the Lord is the key aspect of this “GREAT life.” On the other hand, “GREAT punishment” by God will not be unending since He punishes to correct and rehabilitate and He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9.

Life in God is not everlasting because it is aionios, but rather aionios is everlasting because it is referring to life in God.

Conversely, aionios punishment is not temporary because aionios means temporary, but rather aionios is temporary in this context since God’s chastening is curative and incapable of being eternally resisted. “For his anger is but for a moment; His favor is for a life-time: Weeping may tarry for the night, But joy ‘cometh’ in the morning.” Psalm 30:5.

Aionios then, by itself, means an “indeterminate age,” not an “unending age.” Only the context of the passage provides guidance as to the actual quality and duration of the age.
 
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The lake of fire has become purgatory

In the lake of fire what is removed and what remains?

To know God is to love God is a false notion

If my final end is heaven regardless of my faith why bother evangelizing. Why be concerned for anther persons soul? Why bother conforming to Christ?

The lake of fire was the original purgatory. Catholics needed to 'bring back' purgatory after they decided the lake was eternal hell, cause they rightly realised that universal damnation would be the result. It was a 'relief valve' lol. Protestants don't need it, they just have faith, and OSAS (sometimes).

In the LoF the sin is destroyed and the sinner emerges as a new man in Christ. It is full immersion baptism of fire and the spirit. It's part of God's 'making everything new' project in Rev 21:6.

To know Christ is to love him. Because our hearts bear the manufacturer's name. If you say you know him but don't love him, then you don't really know him. God's saving grace and truth.

Yes we are concerned for ppl's souls. Just because a hospital can re-set broken limbs doesn't mean it's ok to jump out of windows. God has set right ways of living, if we reject them then we do head towards 'hell', which manifests in our lives as depression, isolation, fear, vice, foolishness, vanity, temptation, frustration, deception, condemnation, crime, suicide etc. All the sin that Jesus saves us from.
 
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The Emperor Justinian in A.D. 540 tried to extinguish Origen’s teachings by defining Catholic doctrine at that time. “The Holy Church of Christ teaches an endless aionios (ATELEUTETOS aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.” Aionios was not enough in his judgment to denote endless duration, so he employed ateleutetos. The point is that “aionios” by itself did not mean “everlasting.” It needed to be strengthened with another word to in fact mean “endless,” like “ateleutetos.”

The gospel according to Justinian teaches that Jesus said while on the cross, 'Tetelestai...except for punishment of the wicked, which shall be ateleutetos'.
 
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Saint Steven

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So you are saying the English version is a translation that is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
None of the translations are inspired by the Holy Spirit. The original manuscripts were considered to contain inspired writing. None of those original manuscripts exist. We are working from copies of copies of copies. The work of the translator is to compare all the copies and decide what seems most original. The manuscript copies also have notes that were added at a later date which are not in the original writings. These ended up in the translations as well.
 
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twin.spin

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Dear Fine: No thanks. Universalism is what it is:
1)
2 Timothy 2:14 NIV
[ Dealing With False Teachers ] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.​

2) is in opposition to this truth:
1 Chronicles 28:9 YLT
…. for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.
 
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None of the translations are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Careful Steve, your eternity may now be hanging by a thread, if you incur the ire of the KJVO (twice inerrant, double-inspired, good-enough-for-Jesus) crowd.
 
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Saint Steven

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Careful Steve, your eternity may now be hanging by a thread, if you incur the ire of the KJVO (twice inerrant, double-inspired, good-enough-for-Jesus) crowd.
Yes. Hanging by a thread that was broken in post #101 - lol
 
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Dear Fine: No thanks. Universalism is what it is:
1)
2 Timothy 2:14 NIV
[ Dealing With False Teachers ] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.​

2) is in opposition to this truth:
1 Chronicles 28:9 YLT
…. for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.

That's right, so don't forsake Him by alleging he tortures ppl in His basement.
 
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Saint Steven

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I only noted it in #101, you #86'd it.
Wow. That is so funny. Where I come from 86'd is to be given the boot. Seems that it means that to you as well.
 
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Wow. That is so funny. Where I come from 86'd is to be given the boot. Seems that it means that to you as well.

When I went back to check the post you referenced just now I realised it was #86. Coincidence? I think not.

Being '86'd' is really an American expression (probably a bit antiquated now?), but it's been exported through the movies. Yo might recall in Get Smart - Max was Agent 86.
 
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d taylor

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Yes, not sure if you'd want to rely on that scripture as proof for your claim that ppl choose eternal damnation by rejecting God's word. I think we have an example here of rhetoric and Paul taking the opportunity to rub salt in the wounds with the Jews who are already full of envy and pride. And indeed until those sins are overcome a person won't be able to enter the Kingdom. These are sins of selfishness, superiority, worldliness and fear/ hatred of others that need to be cleansed. Why Jesus admonishes us to "Seek ye first the Kingdom'.

Why would these sins have to be over come Jesus took away the sin of the world.
 
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Why would these sins have to be over come Jesus took away the sin of the world.

God was in Jesus at Calvary reconciling the world to Himself, not counting sins. Jesus revealed that God does not 'hold our sins against us', just as a father always loves and forgives his prodigal son. Moreover, he is the way to life, the good life, the abundant life of the father. But still there is sin in the world, in people and in believers. This will be finally dealt with in the Eschaton when God 'makes everything new' (Rev 21:5) in Christ. Then heaven will fully come to earth and the kingdom will be everlasting.

Do you understand Jesus to have 'taken away the sin of the world' in some other way?
 
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d taylor

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God was in Jesus at Calvary reconciling the world to Himself, not counting sins. Jesus revealed that God does not 'hold our sins against us', just as a father always loves and forgives his prodigal son. Moreover, he is the way to life, the good life, the abundant life of the father. But still there is sin in the world, in people and in believers. This will be finally dealt with in the Eschaton when God 'makes everything new' (Rev 21:5) in Christ. Then heaven will fully come to earth and the kingdom will be everlasting.

Do you understand Jesus to have 'taken away the sin of the world' in some other way?

The sin of the world was taken away giving every one access to Eternal Life but only the people who trust in Jesus for Eternal Life receive it.

When the dead are judged at the great white throne. They are judged according to their works, sins are never mentioned. Meaning this is not a judgment to see if these people are dead, that was determined at their physical death on earth.

This is a judgment determining their position in the lake of fire, this is the second death. So the unbelievers are dead dead.

God only judges these people to determined a position, these people judged themselves while they were living, when they past on God's offer of Eternal Life.
 
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Lazarus Short

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So you are saying the English version is a translation that is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Let me ask you this: When was the last time you heard of a Greek Bible scholar consulting an English version of the New Testament...or a Hebrew-speaking scholar doing the same for the Old Testament? What would be the point?? They already have the Real Deal!
 
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The sin of the world was taken away giving every one access to Eternal Life but only the people who trust in Jesus for Eternal Life receive it.

Only those in Christ. And we say all will accept Christ, either in this world or the next. Every knee shall bow.

When the dead are judged at the great white throne. They are judged according to their works, sins are never mentioned.

Not so. The sinners are defined by their sins at the GWTJ. See Rev 21:8:

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Meaning this is not a judgment to see if these people are dead, that was determined at their physical death on earth.
This is a judgment determining their position in the lake of fire, this is the second death. So the unbelievers are dead dead.

The word 'death' is used in various ways in the Bible and Rev in particular. Can signify physically dead, or dead in Christ, or dead to Christ.

The aim of the second death is to kill death generally. Which means to give life. If death is killed, only life remains (by elimination!). So the lake of fire kills death and sin (that causes death).

That's why we see the nations who get zapped in Rev 20:9 or presumably chucked in the LoF as unbelievers in Rev 20:15 emerge repentant and worshipful in Rev 21:24-26, and get healing by the tree of life in Rev 22:2. It's because the judgment is they need a good cleaning up.

God only judges these people to determined a position, these people judged themselves while they were living, when they past on God's offer of Eternal Life.

What a shame brother, you know the earthly truth, but you think God gives up on His creation? That's what the cross is all about - it's God guaranteeing us He'll go further to save than the devil can go to destroy. His love doesn't quit just because we do. What a petty deity that would be lol.

As all things came from God, so too shall all things return to Him.
 
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