The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Oldmantook]

Sorry if I am being thick-headed. As I said, I am still grappling with this. Toss me a grappling hook and I may be able to get out of this hole. - lol

We make choices constantly, and that is significant, whether human vanity or not. But I guess I was pointing at the larger issue of our destination in the afterlife. The sheep or goat decision. Granted, no one can come unless they are drawn/called, yet a decision is required.

I'm heading out the door, I'll catch up later. God bless.

It is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.

 

[jahel]

It is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.

But the draw can only be from the well drawn from. M=ECsqrd

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps this synopsis will help:
Calvinism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does not want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Arminianism: God is not strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Universalism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is saved.

Quoted from David Burnfield's book Patristic Universalism which I highly recommend. Also may want to check out David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved. I haven't read this book but Hart is no slouch.

Thanks, what an awesome post. Much appreciated. Wow.
I'll check out those authors/books.

 

[Oldmantook]

But the draw can only be from the well drawn from. M=ECsqrd

sorry, i'm horrible with math . God owns the well.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.

That's good, thanks.
Is that predestination, a foreknowledge of our free-will choice, or do we really have no choice in the matter?

That becomes a huge issue for Damnationists. Because it means God predestined most to suffer eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. Which is a far-cry from justice and mercy.

 

[jahel]

sorry, i'm horrible with math . God owns the well.

Every well, turned on it’s side, is a tunnel *_*

 

[Saint Steven]

Every well, turned on it’s side, is a tunnel *_*

And don't drink the water.

 

[Der Alte]

Always good to hear from you der Alter, and feel free to present some material that hasn't been addressed in past threads.
Just on that point, Jesus reveals the oral tradition which apparently taught a hell of eternal conscious torment was a little off-base.
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another. (Mk 9:47-50)
So we see here the warnings and threats customarily associated with hell. But then Jesus takes hellfire and says 'everyone' will experience it, and moreover, it's 'salting' which is 'good' for you and necessary. What?! He's 'subverting the dominant paradigm'! He's talking the purifying power of holy fire and righteous judgment. The use of 'salt' to produce harmonious relations.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows (Mt 10:27-30)
What's he saying here? Don't be afraid of man or the devil, fear God who can destroy your soul, but don't be a birdbrain, you're of incalculable value to Him, He's not gonna do that.
Again, Jesus starts with the assumption and then reveals God's truth is higher, that He's far more gracious and merciful than we can ever anticipate.
Hope this clears things up for you der Alter, and remember the beautiful feet of those who carry the gospel are not necessarily pedicured.

That is certainly an interesting twist on what Jesus said. Do you think Jesus is saying everyone is going to be cast into hell or everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven?
Or did Jesus say if some part of you causes you to sin it is better to lose that part and enter the kingdom of God rather THAN be cast into hell where the fire is not quenched.
There is an either/or choice, not everybody one way or the other. Enter the kingdom of God or cast into hell.
Here is what Paul had to say about the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day of judgment will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's action
1 Corinthians 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire. ​

 

[Der Alte]

It is all predetermined - just that God being omniscient and omnipotent knows how to shape our will according to His will. He will draw all men unto him (Jn 12:32). The word for "draw" is helkysō which also means drag, as in drag into the temple/court, drag their nets, etc. We are like the fishes who struggle and resist against the net but Jesus will use his net to drag us to himself and transform us, after which we become fishers of men.

Evidently God wants some of His creation to live a life of sin so He can punish them for some period of time in fire before He "draws" them to Himself.

 

[Oldmantook]

Every well, turned on it’s side, is a tunnel *_*

So I guess Universalism shows there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Saint Steven]

So I guess Universalism shows there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Damnationism says the light in the end of the tunnel is a train. - lol

 

[jahel]

So I guess Universalism shows there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

As long as it isn’t a train

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps this synopsis will help:
Calvinism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does not want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Arminianism: God is not strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Universalism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is saved.

Quoted from David Burnfield's book Patristic Universalism which I highly recommend. Also may want to check out David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved. I haven't read this book but Hart is no slouch.

I did a bit of research and found this book review video.

Since we believe the release of David Bentley Hart’s That All Shall be Saved is a significant event, we felt like it deserved a significant review! And who better to do it than these two distinguished professors and our dear friends, Chris Green, professor of theology at Southeastern University (and author of Surprised by God, The End is Music, Sanctifying Interpretation, & Toward a Pentecostal Theology of the Lord’s Supper) and Brad Jersak (Her Gates Will Never Be Shut, A More Christlike God, A More Christlike Way, IN: Incarnation & Inclusion, Abba & Lamb). We share our thoughts on Hart’s book, eternal conscious torment, inclusion, whether or not the language of universalism is helpful, and much more!

 

[Saint Steven]

Another fatal flaw of Damnationism: Fear.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh, I remember this discussion from earlier.
You are talking about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin. Yet...
- You have no idea what the sin is exactly.
- You don't know if you may have committed it.
- You believe you will burn forever if you have. (because it is unforgivable)

Am I missing anything here?

All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”

 

[Saint Steven]

All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”

No, completely relevant.
I agree that an "honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.” However, that is no basis for a doctrine. Sounds like shadow boxing.

And it is ridiculous to use as a refutation of Universalism. Especially if you understand what Universalism teaches us about the ages. This one, the next one, and those yet to come. Forgiveness, if needed, will come after the Millennium. When the judgment/correction actually happens.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Oh, I remember this discussion from earlier.
You are talking about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin. Yet...
- You have no idea what the sin is exactly.
- You don't know if you may have committed it.
- You believe you will burn forever if you have. (because it is unforgivable)

Am I missing anything here?

 

[Charlie24]

All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”

All completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. We can only speculate on what we think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus never actually said exactly what it is. An honest preacher of the gospel shouldn’t be afraid to say the words “I don’t know.”

They are all really nice guys but when you present a truth, they all gather around the wagons and respond with nonsense. It's a hopeless endeavor.

 

[Saint Steven]

They are all really nice guys but when you present a truth, they all gather around the wagons and respond with nonsense. It's a hopeless endeavor.

We love you too, Charlie.

Did you see this brilliant illustration posted by @Oldmantook ?

Calvinism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does not want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Arminianism: God is not strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is not saved.
Universalism: God is strong enough to save everyone + God does want to save everyone = everyone is saved.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

They are all really nice guys but when you present a truth, they all gather around the wagons and respond with nonsense. It's a hopeless endeavor.

Yes Charlie, we say Calvinism is right in that it has a high view of God's sovereignty, and Arminianism is right in that it has a high view of free will. The result is that God wants everyone to be saved, and ultimately everyone chooses Jesus.

Now isn't that the perfect outcome!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That is certainly an interesting twist on what Jesus said. Do you think Jesus is saying everyone is going to be cast into hell or everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven?

The fire of which Jesus is speaking is holy fire. It may well be experienced by many as intensely painful, because it's burning away the false identity, the sin attachments. But the Great Physician can shatter rock without breaking a bruised reed.

Or did Jesus say if some part of you causes you to sin it is better to lose that part and enter the kingdom of God rather THAN be cast into hell where the fire is not quenched.

Yes, Jesus is tough on sin, and teaching us we need to be so, sin is no trivial thing. I'm guessing you have both eyes and hands intact Der Alter, and like all Christians, you're reluctant to take these admonitions too literally?

There is an either/or choice, not everybody one way or the other. Enter the kingdom of God or cast into hell.
Here is what Paul had to say about the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day of judgment will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's action
1 Corinthians 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.

I don't see how these scriptures support your claim of an either/or decision. Paul is clearly saying the firey trial may destroy 'workmanship', but the person will be saved. It's entirely consistent with fire performing a purifying function.