America is the Best, Most Free, and Most Prosperous Country on Earth: Change My Mind

[98cwitr]

As I was told this was a debatable topic, I figured I'd post here to let the debate ensue.

Definitions:

Best: most productive of good : offering or producing the greatest advantage, utility, or satisfaction

Free: enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another

Prosperous: marked by success or economic well-being

 

[Paidiske]

Hmm.

Could we start by defining our criteria for "best"? Best in what way?

 

[Belk]

As I was told this was a debatable topic, I figured I'd post here to let the debate ensue.

Interesting challenge. Will likely need to start with an agreement on metrics.

How shall we measure your criteria?

Best, Most Free, and most Prosperous?

 

[98cwitr]

Interesting challenge. Will likely need to start with an agreement on metrics.

How shall we measure your criteria?

Best, Most Free, and most Prosperous?

Fair point. Definitions added to OP.

 

[com7fy8]

Could we start by defining our criteria for "best"? Best in what way?

Watch out! Paidiske is an Aussie Plus, I happen to like the wildlife of Australia.

I am thinking of how people anywhere can benefit from being a family culture. And poor people can be better off than very rich people, if the poor are about family. And this might not show at the national level, of any country.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As I was told this was a debatable topic, I figured I'd post here to let the debate ensue.

Who said it was debatable topic ?

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Just curious to know what Freedom Americans has which are not available in Canada, or UK or Germany or Australia ?

 

[Paidiske]

I'm going to start by stating that my fundamental conviction that every nation has strengths and weaknesses, and that while some are clearly not in a good way at all, when we're comparing, say, first-world countries, the notion that any one country is "best" in some objective way is clearly nonsense. (So this is not an exercise in nationalistic pride on my part!)

That said, the idea that the United States of America, specifically, is best seems to me to be particularly and demonstrably false. If a working definition of "best" is "most productive of good," then I'd have to say that on its propensity for warfare and inflicting death and misery on other nations, America fails instantly.

And if we're looking at prosperity, then the very high levels of poverty in America, and the lack of willingness from government to address the causes, would also seem to me to make it obvious that America is not the most prosperous, either.

I am not clear that America has significantly more freedom than other places (one example which comes to mind might be America's "right to bear arms," but since that then feeds back into so much gun-related death, that might be a point for freedom but a detraction from a claim for being the "best" society; not an unequivocal win).

How's that for a starting point?

 

[pitabread]

I'd be curious as to why the OP thinks this in the first place.

Per what is listed in the OP, the only measurement where the U.S. currently "wins" is in overall GDP. The U.S. does currently have the world's highest GDP (although China is catching up). However, they are not first when it comes to GDP per capita.

By every other measure (e.g. freedom indices, human development index, etc) the U.S. does not come in first place.

So I'm not sure why the OP thinks the U.S. is the "best". Best at what exactly?

 

[evoeth]

I'm going to start by stating that my fundamental conviction that every nation has strengths and weaknesses, and that while some are clearly not in a good way at all, when we're comparing, say, first-world countries, the notion that any one country is "best" in some objective way is clearly nonsense. (So this is not an exercise in nationalistic pride on my part!)

That said, the idea that the United States of America, specifically, is best seems to me to be particularly and demonstrably false. If a working definition of "best" is "most productive of good," then I'd have to say that on its propensity for warfare and inflicting death and misery on other nations, America fails instantly.

And if we're looking at prosperity, then the very high levels of poverty in America, and the lack of willingness from government to address the causes, would also seem to me to make it obvious that America is not the most prosperous, either.

I am not clear that America has significantly more freedom than other places (one example which comes to mind might be America's "right to bear arms," but since that then feeds back into so much gun-related death, that might be a point for freedom but a detraction from a claim for being the "best" society; not an unequivocal win).

How's that for a starting point?

Pointless. You don't want your mind changed

 

[Paidiske]

Pointless. You don't want your mind changed

This is a debate forum. I'm open to debate, but I've started by stating my initial (antipodean) position.

If you disagree I shall be interested to know why.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Re: Prosperity.

In terms of GDP per capita, the US ranks between #8-11, depending on how you want to measure it.
List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia
List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia

As measured by Median Wealth per Adult, the US ranks #22. Even when you go to Mean Wealth per Adult, which is grossly skewed by a handful of extremely wealthy people, we still only come in at #3.
List of countries by wealth per adult - Wikipedia

Approximately 2% of our population lives on less than $5.50/day, which puts us at #25 (with #1 being 0%) on the list of countries for which wikipedia has data:
List of countries by percentage of population living in poverty - Wikipedia

We have one of the highest rates of income inequality outside of Africa and South America:
List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia

 

[dzheremi]

I like the USA quite a lot, but I don't like jingoism. By many metrics, such as affordability and safety, there are many places you could live that would give you a better quality of life on average than the USA does.

Personally I prefer the idea that the USA is a nation with millions of good people in it, along with some less-than-stellar examples of humanity, and a lot of potential (this also describes most places that aren't the USA, too). What we make of it is up to us in any given time period. Right now I'm not super optimistic given the irresponsible manipulation of the public for the sake of political posturing (we've always had that; it just seems like it's particularly bad right now, even relative to how it was fairly recently in the Bush II era, when it wasn't all that great either), but then I remind myself how young the USA is as a country. We have yet to become jaded as a country, and as a result we can come off as pretty obnoxious, like the guy who goes around telling everyone else that we saved them all during _____ (usually it's WWII, but that doesn't really matter), as though the USA is the only country in the world that actually does anything. Meanwhile the Aussies, the French, the Poles, and many others have tended to back us (however reluctantly, in some cases) in every major conflict we've ever been in.

Basically, I think the USA is among the best of the developed Western nations (and all this freedom of speech is pretty dang sweet compared to the lunacy that seems to be gripping many places like the UK), but being humble and recognizing that we have a lot of work to do for the sake of our own society and its ability to function properly (not so that we can rub it in to Canada how much better we are than them or something) would make the USA even better. Maybe truly 'great', if certain political factions in this country don't own some sort of copyright on making America great (again?).

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to the Cato Institute the US is ranked 28 out of 162 for personal freedom and 6 out of 162 for economic freedom. The 2018 report (PDF) can be found here: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org...eedom-index-2018-country-profiles-revised.pdf

According to Freedom House the current score for the US is 86/100, compared to Canada's 99/100, Australia's 98/100, or Finland's 100/100 (in fact, much of the Western World is higher compared to the US, the UK, Spain, France, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, etc are all in the 90's). Comparable to the US's ranking is Belize (also 86), Croatia (85), Ghana (83), and Mongolia (84), and Greece (87).
Freedom in the World 2019 Map
Freedom in the World Countries | Freedom House

Reporters Without Borders ranks the US 48th in Press Freedom globally.
2019 World Press Freedom Index | Reporters Without Borders

That would seem to suggest that, as far as "most free" is concerned, that's a definite nope.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JackRT]

Who said it was debatable topic ?

You are quite right, it is not a debatable topic. On a yearly basis several organizations publish the results of surveys on similar topics to those raised in the OP. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway and Switzerland all regularly place ahead of the USA. Whenever I return to Canada from the USA, I instantly feel a real sense of relief.

 

[Silverback]

As I was told this was a debatable topic, I figured I'd post here to let the debate ensue.

In my travels, and having lived overseas on several occasions, this is my opinion.

Many countries have high levels of personal freedom, the US probably has more freedom when it comes to speaking your mind, and of course the second amendment. But I would generally feel "free enough" in most Western European Nations, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. However, like the US, they each have their own quirks.

As far as prosperity goes, that is a little harder to gauge. If you want to rise from poverty to wealth, then the US is the only place. But that means 70 hour work weeks, sitting, and sleeping on the floor with two roommates, and eating Raman three times a day, while trying to sneak in a few college courses here, and there. But, it can be done, people do it every day. There are things though that can hold you back, and limit your opportunities, and overall I think the US is not a country that really forgives past mistakes, black marks tend to stick to you, and it is extremely difficult to get past things like minor legal problems, credit issues, bankruptcy, having been fired from a job, substance abuse, and homelessness. I won't say people can't get past these things, it's just very difficult, and not a lot of people will understand.

As for freedom, I think the US probably edges out most nations, but it's a razor thin lead.

Prosperous...Only if you are willing to work yourself to exhaustion, and make a lot of sacrifices when young. And don't mess up, you may not recover from it.

The dog eat dog free enterprise system in the United States affords a lot of opportunity to make it, and make it big, but you will be stepping on other people's necks to get there. The good thing is those stepped on, if they work hard enough will have the chance to step on someone else. So, it's fair I guess

As far as the best nation goes...heck yes, but I'm red, white, and blue to my soul.

But we do have our fair share of problems, however, if you were born on a dirty landfill in a fourth world country and someone gave you a choice to immigrate to any country in Europe, most people would say "why can't I go to America"

It is what it is.

 

[Speedwell]

What we we need now is to hear back from someone on the other side of the issue as to why these metrics don't matter, or what concept of "bestness" transcends them.

 

[Sam Davis]

America has more people locked up in jails, prisons, and mental hospitals than any other nation under the sun.....are we free.....nope.....

 

[Belk]

Fair point. Definitions added to OP.

So the next question is, what would change your mind on the subject? For myself I readily concede that we are not the most free or the most prosperous but I still see us as the best. To change that opinion would require someone showing me that we have lost the ability to work towards our better selves. Americans have dropped low before but we have always rallied and managed to pull ourselves back to our better selves.

 

[Occams Barber]

As for freedom, I think the US probably edges out most nations, but it's a razor thin lead.

Not even close - see post #14 and the Freedom map. Hover over each country to see individual scores.
OB