Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - even when I agree with you and see your point, I want to find fault with your argument and seek a reason to argue with you because of your attitude and manner.

2 questions for you.

1. Explain clearly what my "attitude and manner" is, with examples. I have been very clear and direct with you. That's my style. Not everyone likes that. But I have not insulted you in any way.

2. Why do you feel it necessary to argue even though agreeing with me? That doesn't make sense to me.

Of course, I suppose you might want people to argue with you, in which case, you are doing a terrific job.

All I want to do is defend the truth of Scripture.

FreeGrace2 - did I not begin my post by directing it to "Phil W"? Is there another way to identify who I am addressing?

It was another thread.

 

[BCsenior]

Greetings, Paul McGraw ... I'd like to know where you're coming from.

(1) Do you agree that there are many dire warnings in the NT about losing salvation?

(2) If you do agree ...
could these "warnings" be meant to keep God's chosen and called elect on the straight and narrow,
and are therefore just bluffs, exaggerations, lies even (because OSAS is true)?

Looking forward to your take on this!

 

[Paul McGraw]

Greeting to you also BCsenior - in answer to your questions, yes there are many dire warnings in the NT about losing salvation. While I acknowledge that some men of goodwill may find reasons to explain away these warnings, to me they are clear. And no I do not believe these warnings are just bluffs. There are too many of them.

But I give thanks that our Lord will take pity on the sinner who repents. Does God expect us to be more merciful than He? God commands us to forgive our brother up to 70 times 7 times IF OUR BROTHER COMES TO US AND ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS. If we come to our Lord and ask for His forgiveness will God do less than what He commands us to do?

“Yet even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning; rend your hearts and not your garments.”
Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love
Joel 2:12-13

 

[BCsenior]

yes there are many dire warnings in the NT about losing salvation. While I acknowledge that some men of goodwill may find reasons to explain away these warnings, to me they are clear. And no I do not believe these warnings are just bluffs. There are too many of them. But I give thanks that our Lord will take pity on the sinner who repents. Does God expect us to be more merciful than He? God commands us to forgive our brother up to 70 times 7 times IF OUR BROTHER COMES TO US AND ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS. If we come to our Lord and ask for His forgiveness will God do less than what He commands us to do?

Excellent answer, Paul ... I'm happy that the truth has been revealed to you!

 

[Paul McGraw]

2 questions for you.

1. Explain clearly what my "attitude and manner" is, with examples. I have been very clear and direct with you. That's my style. Not everyone likes that. But I have not insulted you in any way.

2. Why do you feel it necessary to argue even though agreeing with me? That doesn't make sense to me.

All I want to do is defend the truth of Scripture.

Your question 1 is a perfect example. No matter what I offer you, you have already given yourself an excuse as to why I will be at fault and not you. I will not be clear enough. You will argue with my examples. You do not request information, you demand that I explain to your satisfaction.

Your question 2, see my answer to your question 1.

If all you want to do is defend the truth of Scripture (to the best of your current understanding) then beware of certain sins that can creep into anyone's walk with Christ: arrogance, pride, and vanity. I have committed these sins many times. I will pray today that the Lord will give me greater humility and forgiveness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Greeting to you also BCsenior - in answer to your questions, yes there are many dire warnings in the NT about losing salvation.

Could pick out the single most clear and direct verse that tells us that salvation can be losts. Without having to make any assumptions about what words might mean.

Thanks.

While I acknowledge that some men of goodwill may find reasons to explain away these warnings, to me they are clear. And no I do not believe these warnings are just bluffs. There are too many of them.

I believe that Jesus' promise to recipients of eternal life is the single most clear verse in the Bible on eternal security.

So, if there are any verses about losing salvation, then that means that Jesus really didn't mean what He said, or that He has contradicted other verses.

 

[BCsenior]

(Paul) could you pick out the single most clear and direct verse that tells us that salvation can be losts. Without having to make any assumptions about what words might mean.

Paul, don't waste your time ...
because he has seen them here (in the past) dozens of times already.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 questions for you.

1. Explain clearly what my "attitude and manner" is, with examples. I have been very clear and direct with you. That's my style. Not everyone likes that. But I have not insulted you in any way.

2. Why do you feel it necessary to argue even though agreeing with me? That doesn't make sense to me.

Your question 1 is a perfect example. No matter what I offer you, you have already given yourself an excuse as to why I will be at fault and not you.

What? I asked a question, and I get a lecture. Wow. I explained my style. By asking to "explain clearly" I mean to provide examples, as I made clear.

But, did you do that? No. You just continue to attack me by making wrong assumptions as to what I will do with your answer.

Are you really that insecure? What is obvious is that you haven't provided ANY examples of what you charge me with. And this happens all the time. I provide verses that Arminians (such as yourself) cannot explain or answer, so they have to attack my "attitude", "motives", etc, as a way to distract from their failure to be able to answer my verses or explain them differently than they plainly say and mean.

I will not be clear enough.

Well, I can't help you there.

You will argue with my examples.

Since you haven't yet provided any, this is just a bad case of judgmental assumption.

You do not request information, you demand that I explain to your satisfaction.

Another false charge. I ASKED for information. And where have I "demanded" any explanation? When I ask for an explanation, I usually follow it with "thanks".

However, don't you see that your quote here is totally contradictory?

First, you claim I "do not request information". Then, you claim that I "demand explanations".

So, either I'm not asking (demanding) for information, or I am asking (demanding) explanations (information).

Your question 2, see my answer to your question 1.

This is just dodgeball.

Obviously, you cannot explain yourself.

If all you want to do is defend the truth of Scripture (to the best of your current understanding) then beware of certain sins that can creep into anyone's walk with Christ: arrogance, pride, and vanity.

There is none of that in my posts. They are straightforward and direct.

I would ask for an example of any of what you note, but then you'd probably claim I was demanding something of you. And I now know that you do not like to give examples.

So I'll take that as not having any examples. But it's easy to make such claims.

I have committed these sins many times.

I thought your views were that true believers "won't" sin. I'd ask that you explain this, but I guess you would claim that I'm demanding something of you.

I will pray today that the Lord will give me greater humility and forgiveness.

Don't forget to ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment when reading Scripture.

Please don't forget this: I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

And I am assuming that you don't want to be wrong either.

 

[Phil W]

Phil W - interesting debate. In your view, if a Christian does commit a sin, is he immediately lost, or does God give that person the opportunity to confess their sin, repent of it, and regain their salvation?

Hi Paul, welcome aboard.
If a man sins, he isn't a Christian.
Our gracious God has provided a way for him to start being a Christian.
It starts with a total permanent turn from sin.
Followed by a water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Do these things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That is what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38.
Romans 6:3-6 provides the information about what else happens at baptism: the immersion into Christ and His death, our death of the old man, our burial, and our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
A newness that is also called rebirth, and/or, new creature.
Verse 7 provides the results..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

 

[Phil W]

You wrote..."Do parents' own children obey exhortations?"

They do if they love and trust them.

 

[BCsenior]

It starts with a total permanent turn from sin.
Followed by a water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Do these things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That is what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38.

Phil, you are confused about this one thing ...
Both "the promise" and "the gift" refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
which is confirmed by some words in tongues.
The full details are explained here ...
The ultimate explanation of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

 

[Phil W]

Phil, you are confused about this one thing ...
Both "the promise" and "the gift" refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
which is confirmed by some words in tongues.
The full details are explained here ...
The ultimate explanation of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

I agree, but fail to see how my post led you to think me "confused" on that issue.

 

[BCsenior]

I agree, but fail to see how my post led you to think me "confused" on that issue.

So, do you believe "the gift" is the H.S. baptism with the confirmation of tongues?

 

[Phil W]

So, do you believe "the gift" is the H.S. baptism with the confirmation of tongues?

Absolutely yes.
Seems like two gifts to me, as I rejoice in hearing the Spirit speaking form His temple...me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Paul, welcome aboard.
If a man sins, he isn't a Christian.

Didn't you admit you sin?

Our gracious God has provided a way for him to start being a Christian.

One becomes a Christian through faith in Christ.

It starts with a total permanent turn from sin.[/QUTOE]
This is a works system of salvation. That's what the Pharisees thought, too, and Jesus condemned them for their notions.

Followed by a water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Do these things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That is what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38.

I see you don't believe Gal 3:2,5 or the account of Cornelius the Centurion in Acts 10.

 

[Phil W]

Didn't you admit you sin?

Not since I repented of sin.
My "turn" was permanent.

One becomes a Christian through faith in Christ.

Yup, Can't do it without faith.

You need to edit your post so I can answer the rest of it.
Thanks for shortening up your posts.

 

[Paul McGraw]

2 questions for you.

1. Explain clearly what my "attitude and manner" is, with examples. I have been very clear and direct with you. That's my style. Not everyone likes that. But I have not insulted you in any way.

2. Why do you feel it necessary to argue even though agreeing with me? That doesn't make sense to me.

What? I asked a question, and I get a lecture. Wow. I explained my style. By asking to "explain clearly" I mean to provide examples, as I made clear.

But, did you do that? No. You just continue to attack me by making wrong assumptions as to what I will do with your answer.

Are you really that insecure? What is obvious is that you haven't provided ANY examples of what you charge me with. And this happens all the time. I provide verses that Arminians (such as yourself) cannot explain or answer, so they have to attack my "attitude", "motives", etc, as a way to distract from their failure to be able to answer my verses or explain them differently than they plainly say and mean.


Well, I can't help you there.


Since you haven't yet provided any, this is just a bad case of judgmental assumption.


Another false charge. I ASKED for information. And where have I "demanded" any explanation? When I ask for an explanation, I usually follow it with "thanks".

However, don't you see that your quote here is totally contradictory?

First, you claim I "do not request information". Then, you claim that I "demand explanations".

So, either I'm not asking (demanding) for information, or I am asking (demanding) explanations (information).


This is just dodgeball.

Obviously, you cannot explain yourself.


There is none of that in my posts. They are straightforward and direct.

I would ask for an example of any of what you note, but then you'd probably claim I was demanding something of you. And I now know that you do not like to give examples.

So I'll take that as not having any examples. But it's easy to make such claims.


I thought your views were that true believers "won't" sin. I'd ask that you explain this, but I guess you would claim that I'm demanding something of you.


Don't forget to ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment when reading Scripture.

Please don't forget this: I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

And I am assuming that you don't want to be wrong either.

FreeGrace2 - sadly you have responded in just the way I predicted in my post. Also, you are mixing me up with someone else. It is Phil W who believes that Christians cannot sin. On that point, I am in agreement with you. Christians do commit sins.

You said, "Please don't forget this: I don't want to be wrong any more than you do." Actually there are many things about which I hope I am wrong. For example, I hope I am wrong about Christians losing their salvation. Because if I am wrong, then I can rest easy that I have a place in Heaven.

But I want to thank you for discussing the issue with me, even though our exchange has made it clear to me that Christians can lose their salvation. Reviewing all of the many verses on this issue, and especially focusing on the words of Jesus, I see no other answer. And the final straw was your post that the ex-Christian music celebrities will still enter Heaven. That snapped everything into clear focus.

I will certainly pray that the Lord will give me wisdom and discernment when reading scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Didn't you admit you sin?"

Not since I repented of sin.
My "turn" was permanent.

Apparently you were more successful than the greatest theologian of all time, the apostle Paul, who penned Romans 6 and 7 and wrote it in the present tense.

Yup, Can't do it without faith.

Yup. Can't do it with more than faith, either.

You need to edit your post so I can answer the rest of it.
Thanks for shortening up your posts.

You posted:
"Followed by a water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Do these things and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That is what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38."

I responded with:
"I see you don't believe Gal 3:2,5 or the account of Cornelius the Centurion in Acts 10."

The gift of the Holy Spirit is based on faith in Christ, not water baptism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - sadly you have responded in just the way I predicted in my post.

So, instead of just providing an example or 2, you chose to pat yourself on the back, huh.

Also, you are mixing me up with someone else. It is Phil W who believes that Christians cannot sin. On that point, I am in agreement with you. Christians do commit sins.

i've noticed some similarities between you, so I'm going to have to be more careful who is posting what. Thanks.

You said, "Please don't forget this: I don't want to be wrong any more than you do." Actually there are many things about which I hope I am wrong. For example, I hope I am wrong about Christians losing their salvation. Because if I am wrong, then I can rest easy that I have a place in Heaven.

Well, there's a difference between us then.

But, please explain to me how you can be so unsure in spite of what Jesus said in John 10:28. You haven't yet addressed that verse. I cannot imagine how you understand what Jesus said.

But I want to thank you for discussing the issue with me, even though our exchange has made it clear to me that Christians can lose their salvation.

you were rather clear on that idea before we began chatting. Please don't give me any credit for your views that don't line up with what Jesus said.

Reviewing all of the many verses on this issue, and especially focusing on the words of Jesus, I see no other answer.

Ok, now you HAVE to explain how you read John 10:28. please.

And the final straw was your post that the ex-Christian music celebrities will still enter Heaven. That snapped everything into clear focus.

You were already convinced. But you have to totally misunderstand what Jesus said in John 10:28 then.

 

[BCsenior]

Heads up, folks!
He has had John 10:27-28 explained to him many times over the years!
Both verses ... 27 and 28.