Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

The KJV of the bible say "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)
It is a command not to do this, not to stop doing it.

Whether the original means to "stop" or "don't start", the point is clear. It is something that believers can do. Which you seem oblivious to that fact.

Your version of scripture is leading you astray. It erroneously gives the false impression that those who have crucified the flesh still cater to it.

Again, the command obviously means that believers CAN do this. And should NOT DO IT.

Believers take Paul's exhortations and warnings to heart, and don't offend God.

This is just pure naivety. The Scriptures are full of examples of believers who sinned and did so greatly. Are you not familiar with Scripture?

It is the unbelievers who offend God.

So can believers.

Thanks be to God, I am not of this world.

That speaks of your born again nature.

Or, do you believe that you are an alien?

Haven't been since I was reborn of Godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.

Go ahead and just keep deceiving yourself.

 

[Phil W]

Whether the original means to "stop" or "don't start", the point is clear. It is something that believers can do. Which you seem oblivious to that fact.

It is something they can be warned not to do.
But as the spirit of God within them would not allow it any way, the exhortation is probably meant for the wavering who have not committed to Godliness.

Again, the command obviously means that believers CAN do this. And should NOT DO IT.

They can do it, but then they can also quit calling themselves reborn Christians who are reborn of God's seed.

This is just pure naivety. The Scriptures are full of examples of believers who sinned and did so greatly. Are you not familiar with Scripture?

Name one, and we can examine the details.

So can believers.

Just your type of believer...those who don't manifest belief.

That speaks of your born again nature.
Or, do you believe that you are an alien?

It speaks of all of me.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
If some of me, or part of me wasn't made new, it would show that I wasn't "in Christ".

Go ahead and just keep deceiving yourself.

The Jews awaited a Savior who they thought would free them from the Romans, but Jesus came to save them from a far more dangerous enemy.
Sin.
Thanks to such a merciful gracious God, I am one of those now free from sin.
I invite you to come along.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is something they can be warned not to do.

Which is my point. Warned to NOT do what they can do. Which you seem to deny believers can do. That is WNY they are being warned. It's something the CAN do.

But as the spirit of God within them would not allow it any way, the exhortation is probably meant for the wavering who have not committed to Godliness.

Your view here grossly wavers from the truth of Scripture.

And you've just contradicted yourself. By the words "would not allow it any way". True believers are being warned. That PROVES they are capable of doing it.

Your answers continue to be very naive.

They can do it, but then they can also quit calling themselves reborn Christians who are reborn of God's seed.

It doesn't matter what they call themselves, or what you call them. A truly saved person CAN grieve and quench the Spirit. That's WHY we are being warned against it.

I said this:
"This is just pure naivety. The Scriptures are full of examples of believers who sinned and did so greatly. Are you not familiar with Scripture?"

Name one, and we can examine the details.

Let's start with the incestuous believer in 1 Cor 5. Consider what Paul said about the situation:
v.5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Paul told the congregation to turn him over to Satan for to kill him (a form of divine discipline), but that he would be saved.

Just your type of believer...those who don't manifest belief.

Your naivety is showing again.

It speaks of all of me.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
If some of me, or part of me wasn't made new, it would show that I wasn't "in Christ".

This is quite a misunderstanding of the verse. It is to the new creatures that Paul is warning to NOT grieve or quench the Spirit.

The Jews awaited a Savior who they thought would free them from the Romans, but Jesus came to save them from a far more dangerous enemy.
Sin.

And He did. He saves people in 3 tenses, which I've already addressed, and you have already ignored.

But I'll repeat myself. Maybe you'll actually read them this time and respond.

Past tense salvation: Jesus saves us from the PENALTY of sin. Justification

Present tense salvation: Jesus saves us from the POWER of sin. Sanctification However this requires that we obey the commands to be filled with the Spirit, walk by means of the Spirit, to NOT grieve or quench the Spirit. Only when these commands are followed will the believer be saved (delivered) from the power of sin.

Future tense salvation: Jesus saves us from the PRESENCE of sin. Glorification

If you disagree with any of these tenses of salvation, please explain why.

Thanks to such a merciful gracious God, I am one of those now free from sin.
I invite you to come along.

Just review the 3 tenses of salvation and try to prove me wrong.

 

[Phil W]

Which is my point. Warned to NOT do what they can do. Which you seem to deny believers can do. That is WNY they are being warned. It's something the CAN do.

Then 1 John 3:9 is a lie. As is most of Romans 8.

Your view here grossly wavers from the truth of Scripture.

Would that be the truth Jesus said "shall make you free"?
Free from committing sin? (John 8:32-34)

And you've just contradicted yourself. By the words "would not allow it any way". True believers are being warned. That PROVES they are capable of doing it.

What they "can do" is show they are not believers.

Your answers continue to be very naive.

But they don't accommodate or make provision for sin.

It doesn't matter what they call themselves, or what you call them. A truly saved person CAN grieve and quench the Spirit. That's WHY we are being warned against it.

You act like nobody has the Holy Spirit.
Subject to the whims of the flesh, and apt to waver from righteousness.
That is only the way of those in the flesh.
Nobody "in Christ" walks in the flesh. (Gal 5:24)

I said this:
"This is just pure naivety. The Scriptures are full of examples of believers who sinned and did so greatly. Are you not familiar with Scripture?"
Let's start with the incestuous believer in 1 Cor 5. Consider what Paul said about the situation:
v.5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

You call them believers...not me.
The "spirit" in this verse refers to the "church".

Paul told the congregation to turn him over to Satan for to kill him (a form of divine discipline), but that he would be saved.
Your naivety is showing again.
This is quite a misunderstanding of the verse. It is to the new creatures that Paul is warning to NOT grieve or quench the Spirit.

And "the new creature" will comply.

And He did. He saves people in 3 tenses, which I've already addressed, and you have already ignored.
But I'll repeat myself. Maybe you'll actually read them this time and respond.
Past tense salvation: Jesus saves us from the PENALTY of sin. Justification

Yep, the penalty of "past" sins.

Present tense salvation: Jesus saves us from the POWER of sin. Sanctification However this requires that we obey the commands to be filled with the Spirit, walk by means of the Spirit, to NOT grieve or quench the Spirit. Only when these commands are followed will the believer be saved (delivered) from the power of sin.

I'm glad you can see that.
I also hope you realize we CAN follow the commands.

Future tense salvation: Jesus saves us from the PRESENCE of sin. Glorification

"Presence of sin"...you will need to elaborate on that.

If you disagree with any of these tenses of salvation, please explain why.
Just review the 3 tenses of salvation and try to prove me wrong.

I agree with the first two, but don't see a way short of post resurrection life in heaven that is free from the creepy, sin addicted, non and false believers of this world.

 

[Ricky M]

Believe that you cannot lose your salvation ... but live as if you can.

 

[Phil W]

Believe that you cannot lose your salvation ... but live as if you can.

As salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement, it really is a moot point.
Unfortunately, those who believe they can't loose salvation don't "live as if you can".
(Which is a good motto for everybody!)

 

[Ricky M]

As salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement, it really is a moot point.
Unfortunately, those who believe they can't loose salvation don't "live as if you can".
(Which is a good motto for everybody!)

that's not true, it's a misconception that those who believe it can't be lost (the wrong term anyway) preach it as a license to sin.

 

[Phil W]

that's not true, it's a misconception that those who believe "it can't be lost" (the wrong term anyway) preach it as a license to sin.

I'm not so sure about that.
Especially when real freedom from sin is preached by those God uses to exhort and admonish.
Folks have the choice of whom they will follow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Which is my point. Warned to NOT do what they can do. Which you seem to deny believers can do. That is WNY they are being warned. It's something the CAN do"

Then 1 John 3:9 is a lie. As is most of Romans 8.

The verse: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

I love this verse. But many, if not most, fail to understand it. On the surface, it seems to teach sinless perfection.

However, the subject is the new birth (born of God, "God's seed). This new birth creates a "new creature - 2 Cor 5:17). John is teaching that no one can sin from this new nature. But we still have the old human nature, from which we STILL sin. That nature didn't go away at the new birth.

So the issue is how or when does the believer live from the new nature? Only when being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means.

When or how does the believer live from the old human nature? When grieving and/or quenching the Spirit.

Would that be the truth Jesus said "shall make you free"?
Free from committing sin? (John 8:32-34)

Again, you fail to consider 3 tenses of salvation. We won't be free from the presence of sin until we are glorified (eternity). So Jesus was speaking of justification through faith, where we have been saved from the penalty of sin.

You act like nobody has the Holy Spirit.

I don't "act" like anything. I post. There's a big difference.

And every believer HAS the indwelling Holy Spirit in them. It's a gift from God. Any questions?

Nobody "in Christ" walks in the flesh. (Gal 5:24)

Your naivety is stunning.

Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Are you not familiar with this verse, or just can't understand its clear message.

Those believers who AREN'T walking by the Spirit WILL gratify the desire of the flesh. Which you keep seeming to deny.

And "the new creature" will comply.

Can you support this opinion from Scripture? Of course not.

In fact, the commands refute your opinion. If all new creatures "will comply", then there would be no need for any commands.

"Presence of sin"...you will need to elaborate on that.

Pretty simple, really. Is sin present in your life, or absent from your life? I know what you answer will be (absent), yet Scripture reveals otherwise. 1 John 1:8,10.

What is clear is that your question reveals your failure to understand the 3 tenses of salvation.

I said:
"If you disagree with any of these tenses of salvation, please explain why.
Just review the 3 tenses of salvation and try to prove me wrong."

I agree with the first two, but don't see a way short of post resurrection life in heaven that is free from the creepy, sin addicted, non and false believers of this world.

That happens to be the 3rd tense, the future tense. Our "post resurrection life in heaven is still FUTURE, which is the 3rd tense, where we WILL BE SAVED from the presense of sin. iow, there will be NO SIN in heaven. NONE.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement, it really is a moot point.

Salvation is assured by Jesus Himself in a number of verses, which you apparently aren't aware of, or have already rejected.

John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Why don't you believe these verses?

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Which is my point. Warned to NOT do what they can do. Which you seem to deny believers can do. That is WNY they are being warned. It's something the CAN do"

Not if you want to keep calling yourself a Christian.
Heed the exhortations!
Even if it isn't likely you will transgress.

The verse: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
I love this verse. But many, if not most, fail to understand it. On the surface, it seems to teach sinless perfection.
However, the subject is the new birth (born of God, "God's seed). This new birth creates a "new creature - 2 Cor 5:17). John is teaching that no one can sin from this new nature. But we still have the old human nature, from which we STILL sin. That nature didn't go away at the new birth.

Then you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17..."old things are passed away; all things are made new".

So the issue is how or when does the believer live from the new nature? Only when being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means.
When or how does the believer live from the old human nature? When grieving and/or quenching the Spirit.

As the dead in Christ now have a divine nature, the old is gone and isn't even a factor in believer's lives.

Again, you fail to consider 3 tenses of salvation. We won't be free from the presence of sin until we are glorified (eternity). So Jesus was speaking of justification through faith, where we have been saved from the penalty of sin.

I was freed from "the presence of sin" at my crucifixion with Christ. (Rom 6:6-7)

I don't "act" like anything. I post. There's a big difference.
And every believer HAS the indwelling Holy Spirit in them. It's a gift from God. Any questions?

Nope, you made it clear you know that believers have the Holy Spirit in them.
But you cling to the falsehood that "believers" will grieve the Holy Spirit anyway.
Seems double-minded to me.
Unholiness meshing with holiness.
Sin in Christ.

Your naivety is stunning.
Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Are you not familiar with this verse, or just can't understand its clear message.
Those believers who AREN'T walking by the Spirit WILL gratify the desire of the flesh. Which you keep seeming to deny.[/QUOTE]
What I deny is the fact they are believers.
If they really were believers they would believe they have the power to remain in the light-God and need no longer to walk in the darkness-sin.

Can you support this opinion from Scripture? Of course not.

If the new creature doesn't comply to Godly ordinances, he isn't a new creature.
Those that love God do as God's ministers exhort.

In fact, the commands refute your opinion. If all new creatures "will comply", then there would be no need for any commands.

Is your "church" full of disobedient folks?
Is there no one who obeys God?

Even real believers still pray to grow in grace and knowledge.
God doesn't abandon us without the words to teach the unbelievers.
If I warn you not to cross the street without looking both ways, does that mean you would have just jumped out into the street without looking?

Pretty simple, really. Is sin present in your life, or absent from your life? I know what you answer will be (absent), yet Scripture reveals otherwise. 1 John 1:8,10.

The lines meant for those walking in darkness have no bearing on those walking in the light.
John is writing about two very different kinds of men and their walks.
Some of the verses are meant for those in darkness-sin, and some are meant for those who walk in light-God.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 are for those who walk in darkness-sin.

What is clear is that your question reveals your failure to understand the 3 tenses of salvation.
I said:
"If you disagree with any of these tenses of salvation, please explain why.
Just review the 3 tenses of salvation and try to prove me wrong."
That happens to be the 3rd tense, the future tense. Our "post resurrection life in heaven is still FUTURE, which is the 3rd tense, where we WILL BE SAVED from the presense of sin. iow, there will be NO SIN in heaven. NONE.

I'm sure glad I have already, by the grace of God, started my "future.
Jesus is coming back for an unspotted bride.
That doesn't include sinners.

 

[Phil W]

Salvation is assured by Jesus Himself in a number of verses, which you apparently aren't aware of, or have already rejected.

John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Why don't you believe these verses?

As long as you cling to the false notion that "sinners are in Jesus", and "sinners are believers", we are not in the same kingdom.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." (John 14:21)
"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." (John 14:24)
Do "believers" love Jesus?
Do unbelievers?
Which keep Jesus' commandments?


"

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Which is my point. Warned to NOT do what they can do. Which you seem to deny believers can do. That is WNY they are being warned. It's something the CAN do"

Not if you want to keep calling yourself a Christian.

What do you mean by this? What is the requirement for being a Christian in the first place? The Bible uses the word "believer" to describe a Christian.

Heed the exhortations!
Even if it isn't likely you will transgress.

The only way to not transgress is to heed the exhortations, of course.

Is there any verse that specifically teaches that salvation or eternal life can be lost?

Then you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17..."old things are passed away; all things are made new".

Of course I believe it. And I understand it, even though it seems you do not.

Being a "new creature" is the result of the new birth, or being born again, or being regenerated. That doesn't mean this new creature is unable to sin.

To be a "new creature" includes the fact that this creature now has 2 natures; a newly born divine nature, in which the Holy Spirit dwells (I can't prove this from Scripture but it makes more sense than believing that the Spirit dwells in our sin nature (flesh), and we still have our original sinful nature, by which we still sin.

As the dead in Christ now have a divine nature, the old is gone and isn't even a factor in believer's lives.[/QUOTE]
The words "dead in Christ" is only used of believers who have physically died. So you're using the words in a wrong sense.

And the old nature didn't go away. We still have 1 John 1:8 and 10 to deal with. As well, 1 John 2:2.

I was freed from "the presence of sin" at my crucifixion with Christ. (Rom 6:6-7)

I've already gone over the 3 tenses of salvation, but it seems you don't believe tham.

The ONLY time sin won't be present with the believer is in eternity, which is our glorification. That's the future tense of salvation.

Nope, you made it clear you know that believers have the Holy Spirit in them.
But you cling to the falsehood that "believers" will grieve the Holy Spirit anyway.

How is that a falsehood? Paul specifically commands believers to not grieve the Spirit. Why would Paul, in the middle of a letter to a church of believers would he address unbelievers and tell them not to grieve the Spirit? And how would that make sense anyway?

It's God's own children that grieve Him.

Seems double-minded to me.
Unholiness meshing with holiness.
Sin in Christ.

With respect, you are rather naive.

Your naivety is stunning.

No, that would be yours.

I said:
"Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Are you not familiar with this verse, or just can't understand its clear message.
Those believers who AREN'T walking by the Spirit WILL gratify the desire of the flesh. Which you keep seeming to deny."

What I deny is the fact they are believers.

That is naivety. The command is to believers. Just read all of Galatians.

If they really were believers they would believe they have the power to remain in the light-God and need no longer to walk in the darkness-sin.

You're just inserting your own opinions about the matter.

What is clear is that Paul's command is to believers, as is all of his epistles. They ALL start that way; "to the saints..," or "to the church at...".

If the new creature doesn't comply to Godly ordinances, he isn't a new creature.

Of course the new nature will, and that's the point of 1 John 3:9, but the believer still has the old sin nature to contend with.

Go back and really study Gal 5:16 where Paul gives us both sides of the coin. Those believers who DO walk by the Spirit WILL NOT gratify the desires or lusts of the flesh.

The other side of the coin is that those believe who DO NOT walk by the Spirit WILL gratify the desires or lusts of the flesh.

Those that love God do as God's ministers exhort.

Yes, that what the Bible says.

Is your "church" full of disobedient folks?

No, but it's full of sinners. Saved sinners. Not that it's all the time, or even much of the time. But everyone continues to sin. Only eccentrics who don't understand God's word claim otherwise.

Is there no one who obeys God?

All unbelievers fit that category.

Even real believers still pray to grow in grace and knowledge.

If you think all believers pray that, you are naive.

God doesn't abandon us without the words to teach the unbelievers.

Not sure what you're point is here. What are believers supposed to teach unbelievers?

The only thing I can think of is to give them the gospel. But that isn't teaching.

If I warn you not to cross the street without looking both ways, does that mean you would have just jumped out into the street without looking?

It doesn't mean anything. I don't know what your point is here.

Give an example of a warning that I would not be aware of otherwise. That's the point of warning.

The lines meant for those walking in darkness have no bearing on those walking in the light.

What do you mean by "lines meant for those walking in darkness". Where are these "lines"? Who drew them? Where does the Bible speak of such things?

John is writing about two very different kinds of men and their walks.

I would agree. Believers either in fellowship and walking by the Spirit, and believers out of fellowship and are grieving and/or quenching the Spirit.

Some of the verses are meant for those in darkness-sin, and some are meant for those who walk in light-God.

I agree, but we apparently disagree with the specifics of who these people are.

Verses 6, 8, and 10 are for those who walk in darkness-sin.

You mean, those believers who walk in darkness-sin. But I know you don't.

I'm sure glad I have already, by the grace of God, started my "future.

Jesus is coming back for an unspotted bride.[/QUOTE]
They become "unspotted" when they lose their sinful natures, which stay with their physical bodies, which they lose when they enter eternity.

That doesn't include sinners.

Every human being is a sinner.

Some are saved, but most aren't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As long as you cling to the false notion that "sinners are in Jesus", and "sinners are believers", we are not in the same kingdom.

Right, we're in totally different universes. But I've provided enough verses and explanation that my position is clear and supported from Scripture.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." (John 14:21)
"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." (John 14:24)
Do "believers" love Jesus?
Do unbelievers?
Which keep Jesus' commandments?"

You have the naive idea that all believers love Jesus.

Did the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5 demonstrate love for the Lord?
Did Ananias and Sapphire demonstrate love for the Lord in Acts 5?
Simon demonstrate love for the Lord when he tried to bribe Peter in Acts 8?
Did King David demonstrate love for the Lord when he raped Bathsheba and murdered her husband?
Did Moses demonstrate love for the Lord when he struck a rock after being told to speak to a rock?

I suspect that you'll just dismiss the first 3 examples and call them unbelievers, but the Bible doesn't call them that. All the contexts show that they were part of congregations. In fact, the Bible plainly states that Simon believed and was baptized.

But, you can believe what you want. However, what I've shown you from Scripture is clear enough.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Which is my point. Warned to NOT do what they can do. Which you seem to deny believers can do. That is WNY they are being warned. It's something the CAN do"

"Can", but won't.

What do you mean by this? What is the requirement for being a Christian in the first place? The Bible uses the word "believer" to describe a Christian.

Believers turn from sin and get baptized for the remission of past sins.
If they do this they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
They are Christians.

The only way to not transgress is to heed the exhortations, of course.

I'm glad you agree.
They who heed are believers.

Is there any verse that specifically teaches that salvation or eternal life can be lost?

I would use the verses concerning the prodigal son, a "son", "lost and now found"; and the lost sheep the shepherd goes out to find.
Plus Ananias and Sapphira's story.
How about Hymenaus and
And those who "draw back into perdition form Heb 10:38-39.
And 1 Tim 1:24-25..."Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."
Of course there is the presage of "losers", in the Jew's who wanted to return to Egypt.
They were promised a land of their own, but never entered in.

Of course I believe it. And I understand it, even though it seems you do not.
Being a "new creature" is the result of the new birth, or being born again, or being regenerated. That doesn't mean this new creature is unable to sin.

You don't believe 1 John 3:9-10?

To be a "new creature" includes the fact that this creature now has 2 natures; a newly born divine nature, in which the Holy Spirit dwells (I can't prove this from Scripture but it makes more sense than believing that the Spirit dwells in our sin nature (flesh), and we still have our original sinful nature, by which we still sin.

The old multi-personality doctrine doesn't fly when held up to 2 Cor 5:17...which states "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Unless you are inferring that the sinner is not actually in Christ.
I can agree with that, as there is no sin in Christ.

The words "dead in Christ" is only used of believers who have physically died. So you're using the words in a wrong sense.

The dead in Christ are those who were crucified with Christ at there baptism into His death, burail, and were raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1)

And the old nature didn't go away. We still have 1 John 1:8 and 10 to deal with. As well, 1 John 2:2.

Verses addressed to those walking in darkness don't apply to those walking in the light...which is God.

I've already gone over the 3 tenses of salvation, but it seems you don't believe tham.
The ONLY time sin won't be present with the believer is in eternity, which is our glorification. That's the future tense of salvation.

Then you don't believe Rom 6:7 or Eph 2:1-3, or 1 Tim 2:19, or 1 Peter 2:21-22, or 2 Peter 1:10...and many others.

How is that a falsehood? Paul specifically commands believers to not grieve the Spirit. Why would Paul, in the middle of a letter to a church of believers would he address unbelievers and tell them not to grieve the Spirit? And how would that make sense anyway?

Not everyone reading this epistle is a believer.

It's God's own children that grieve Him.

God's own children obey exhortations from apostles.

I said:
"Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Are you not familiar with this verse, or just can't understand its clear message.
Those believers who AREN'T walking by the Spirit WILL gratify the desire of the flesh. Which you keep seeming to deny."

Believers can't walk in the flesh.
It has been crucified and buried with Christ. (Rom 6:3-7)

What is clear is that Paul's command is to believers, as is all of his epistles. They ALL start that way; "to the saints..," or "to the church at...".

And believers heed the exhortations of Christ's apostles.

Of course the new nature will, and that's the point of 1 John 3:9, but the believer still has the old sin nature to contend with.

Then it isn't a new nature.
The old nature was was killed at our death with Christ; along with the vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Go back and really study Gal 5:16 where Paul gives us both sides of the coin. Those believers who DO walk by the Spirit WILL NOT gratify the desires or lusts of the flesh.

Makes it easy to see who is really a believer, doesn't it?

The other side of the coin is that those believe who DO NOT walk by the Spirit WILL gratify the desires or lusts of the flesh.
Yes, that what the Bible says.
No, but it's full of sinners. Saved sinners. Not that it's all the time, or even much of the time. But everyone continues to sin. Only eccentrics who don't understand God's word claim otherwise.
All unbelievers fit that category.


If you think all believers pray that, you are naive.


Not sure what you're point is here. What are believers supposed to teach unbelievers?

The only thing I can think of is to give them the gospel. But that isn't teaching.


It doesn't mean anything. I don't know what your point is here.

Give an example of a warning that I would not be aware of otherwise. That's the point of warning.


What do you mean by "lines meant for those walking in darkness". Where are these "lines"? Who drew them? Where does the Bible speak of such things?


I would agree. Believers either in fellowship and walking by the Spirit, and believers out of fellowship and are grieving and/or quenching the Spirit.


I agree, but we apparently disagree with the specifics of who these people are.


You mean, those believers who walk in darkness-sin. But I know you don't.


Jesus is coming back for an unspotted bride.[/QUOTE]
They become "unspotted" when they lose their sinful natures, which stay with their physical bodies, which they lose when they enter eternity.


Every human being is a sinner.

Some are saved, but most aren't.[/QUOTE]

 

[BCsenior]

“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God,
NOR is he who does NOT love his brothers/sisters.”
(1 John 3:7-10)

To those of you who are adults, I guess this doesn't apply to you!
Therefore, I apologize for wasting your time.
Meanwhile, carry on with your practicing of lawlessness (Mathew 7:23).

 

[Paul McGraw]

Phil W - interesting debate. In your view, if a Christian does commit a sin, is he immediately lost, or does God give that person the opportunity to confess their sin, repent of it, and regain their salvation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Which is my point. Warned to NOT do what they can do. Which you seem to deny believers can do. That is WNY they are being warned. It's something the CAN do"

"Can", but won't.

Still missing the point. If believers "won't", then there would be no need of such warnings and commmands. That should be obvious to everyone.

Believers turn from sin and get baptized for the remission of past sins.

No they don't. Remission of sins is by faith in Christ. Your hangup with with Acts 2:38 is sad. If your statement were true, then what Paul said to the jailer cannot be true.

What say you about that?

If they do this they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No one is water baptized for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Scripture teaches that the gift is given by faith.

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

As if that's not clear enough, consider Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Do you see the order here? The Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were water baptized.

Have you forgotten what Jesus said?
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

I'm glad you agree.
They who heed are believers.

Still missing the point. Believers are commanded to heed.

I would use the verses concerning the prodigal son, a "son", "lost and now found"; and the lost sheep the shepherd goes out to find.

It's not about salvation, but rather fellowship.

Plus Ananias and Sapphira's story.

What about them?

How about Hymenaus and
And those who "draw back into perdition form Heb 10:38-39.

Loss of fellowship.

And 1 Tim 1:24-25..."Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Yes, believers can lose their faith. But they can't lose eternal life.

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

Don't you see this is about divine discipline?

Of course there is the presage of "losers", in the Jew's who wanted to return to Egypt.
They were promised a land of their own, but never entered in.

The "promised land" was given to their children, who had not rebelled. Even Moses wasn't able to enter. Are you going to argue that he didn't make it to heaven?

You don't believe 1 John 3:9-10?

Don't you read my posts? I explained what v.9 refers to.

The old multi-personality doctrine doesn't fly when held up to 2 Cor 5:17...which states "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

I never said anything about multi-personalities. I said 2 natures. Don't you understand that?

Let me ask you: was Jesus fully human or fully divine?

Unless you are inferring that the sinner is not actually in Christ.
I can agree with that, as there is no sin in Christ.

You need to study Romans 6 and 7 read hard. I'll give you a start.

Rom 6-
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Do you see the choices every believer faces? If true believers "won't" sin, then all these verses are meaningless and needless.

The dead in Christ are those who were crucified with Christ at there baptism into His death, burail, and were raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1)

Nope. 1 Thess 4 uses the phrase to indicate believers who have already died.

Again, consider Romans 6-
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Never consider yoursef "dead in Christ". You should think yourself "alive in Christ".
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Verses addressed to those walking in darkness don't apply to those walking in the light...which is God.

What you keep missing is that each believer is capable of either one, and obviously not at the same time.

I said this:
"I've already gone over the 3 tenses of salvation, but it seems you don't believe tham.
The ONLY time sin won't be present with the believer is in eternity, which is our glorification. That's the future tense of salvation."

Then you don't believe Rom 6:7 or Eph 2:1-3, or 1 Tim 2:19, or 1 Peter 2:21-22, or 2 Peter 1:10...and many others.

I've repeated the 3 tenses of salvation a number of times and you've never acknowledged them.

Now you're throwing a bunch of verses, as if that does the trick.

You're going to have to explain specifically why you disagree with these 3 tenses of salvation.

And to say I don't believe certain verses is just a cheap shot. Explain yourself. How aout if I say that you don't believe the whole Bible?

Not everyone reading this epistle is a believer.

What does that have to do with anything? The epistle was written to a congregation of believers. You need to realize that in the 1st Century, there weren't liberal churches claiming Christianity but believing everything but, as we have today.

Believers in the 1st Century endured persecution by belonging to a church. There were no unbelievers in them. And none of the writers of Scripture addressed unbelievers in their epistles.

God's own children obey exhortations from apostles.

Quite naive. They are commanded to. Expected to. But the commands prove that not all do.

Do parents' own children obey exhortations?

Believers can't walk in the flesh.

Romans 7-
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Please note the present tense that Paul wrote in. This isn't some past experience. It was his present experience.

So, please explain these 7 verses according to your opinions.

Then it isn't a new nature.
The old nature was was killed at our death with Christ; along with the vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Please go back and re-read Romans 7.

The other side of the coin is that those believe who DO NOT walk by the Spirit WILL gratify the desires or lusts of the flesh.
Yes, that what the Bible says.

Exactly! That's been my point, which has been opposite to yours. Glad you now see it.

I asked:
"What do you mean by "lines meant for those walking in darkness". Where are these "lines"? Who drew them? Where does the Bible speak of such things?"

And you didn't answer.

I've asked a number of questions in this post. Could you please answer them?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Phil W - interesting debate. In your view, if a Christian does commit a sin, is he immediately lost, or does God give that person the opportunity to confess their sin, repent of it, and regain their salvation?

Since BCsenior has posted, please identify who are you addressing in your posts.

My answer to your question is that sin does NOT result in loss of salvation. If that were true, then Jesus' sacrifice on the cross meant nothing and was worthless. Is that your view?

He died "once for all" for all sin.
Rom 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives
to God. ... For when he died, he died once and for all as far as sin is concerned.

Heb 9:26 -
... creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination
of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. ...

Heb 9:12 -
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most
Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption ...

Heb 7:27 - He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. ...
people. He did this once for all when He offered Himself. ...

1 Pet 3:18 - Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died
for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered ...

Therefore, sin cannot undo what Jesus did. Heb 9:26 speaks of the past tense salvation; Jesus did away with the penalty of sin. This is justification.

 

[Paul McGraw]

FreeGrace2 - even when I agree with you and see your point, I want to find fault with your argument and seek a reason to argue with you because of your attitude and manner. Of course, I suppose you might want people to argue with you, in which case, you are doing a terrific job.

FreeGrace2 - did I not begin my post by directing it to "Phil W"? Is there another way to identify who I am addressing?