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Passionless God’s wrath

AMM

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What about babies and the mentally ill? They don't sin.
Depends what you mean by sin. You're right that a new-born infant isn't thinking lustful thoughts, desiring to hurt someone, or trying to steal. And the mentally ill have an inhibited ability to discern right from wrong. Nonetheless, they are still fallen. As Antoni said - that's all up to God to determine. And I'm thankful that I'm not in charge of that, because I know my sinful flesh would be unjust in such a task.
 
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ArmyMatt

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What about babies and the mentally ill? They don't sin.

true, but since they are still corrupt and will die, they still miss the mark, and are therefore enslaved to sin.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Are they corrupt because they die or is it something else?

they are corrupt because they die, yes. death is the ultimate corruption and completely unnatural.
 
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AMM

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I think I have grown up in the understanding that sin is a violation of the Law or offending God. Is that an understanding of sin in Orthodoxy or is it a wrong idea?
I think sin is a violation of the Law, but it's more than that. It's not just arbitrary laws that God sets up for us mortals to follow, but the law is the expression of God's Love. The law is what Love looks like in action. Sin is anything that falls short ("miss the mark" is the actual meaning of the Greek term) of God, which includes his complete and total love, which we know through the Incarnation of God, especially the crucifixion and resurrection.
 
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Light of the East

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Well said my friend! The Parable of the Prodigal which our Lord taught is the best analogy we can find. Did the son allow his father into his heart, as he sat filthy and starving in the muck of the pig’s pen? Yes, perhaps he did! Perhaps he did allow his mind to enter into his heart as he thought about his father and what he had lost. But them he immediately ‘came to himself’, noticed his own filth and and sinfulness, realized how he had separated himself from the one who loves him and provides for him, and then humbled himself, got up, and headed back to his father, to humbly pray for forgiveness and help. Allowing his father to enter into his heart started the process, but did not complete it, otherwise he would have still been eating the pig’s leftovers and mired in hopeless filth. Converting includes ‘coming to oneself’, realizing our sinfulness and dependence upon our Father, and then following the sure path back to Him in humility and repentance.

And when we do, He runs to us, embraces us, and saves us.


The Prodigal Son Walking Through the Desert of Life
 
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ArmyMatt

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except there is one person in the parable that wasn't mentioned, and that is the older brother. who, even though he was showered with the love of the Father, his hardened heart chose darkness over the Feast.

and there is no such thing as patristic universalism.
 
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Light of the East

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except there is one person in the parable that wasn't mentioned, and that is the older brother. who, even though he was showered with the love of the Father, his hardened heart chose darkness over the Feast.

and there is no such thing as patristic universalism.

You missed the whole point of the blog, Father. The point was to speak to the fears that we all have as we struggle on our journey home. That is why the Elder Brother was not mentioned.

And with all due respect for you as a priest and God's servant, I will go with St. Isaac of Syria and St. Gregory of Nyssa, thank you. My opinion is that 1500 years of Roman Catholic influence has wrecked the eschatology of the Christian faith. But let's not discuss this here, okay?
 
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ArmyMatt

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You missed the whole point of the blog, Father. The point was to speak to the fears that we all have as we struggle on our journey home. That is why the Elder Brother was not mentioned.

And with all due respect for you as a priest and God's servant, I will go with St. Isaac of Syria and St. Gregory of Nyssa, thank you. My opinion is that 1500 years of Roman Catholic influence has wrecked the eschatology of the Christian faith. But let's not discuss this here, okay?

I didn't misread your post. you have this un-Orthodox understanding of what God's wrath is, which makes you afraid of something that we don't actually believe.

and if we are going to talk about our journey home, we had better mention the Elder Brother, and what he missed out on, because the journey home means nothing if we miss the point of why we are allowed home.

and if you wanna name saints, we can. the eternity of hell is long before St Gregory of Nyssa or St Isaac, and has been affirmed long after them. it wasn't 1500 years of RC anything, at least not on this topic.
 
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Not David

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I didn't misread your post. you have this un-Orthodox understanding of what God's wrath is, which makes you afraid of something that we don't actually believe.

and if you wanna name saints, we can. the eternity of hell is long before St Gregory of Nyssa or St Isaac, and has been affirmed long after them. it wasn't 1500 years of RC anything, at least not on this topic.
Father, is it true that there was an Ecumenical Council which condemned Universalism or am I mistaken?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Father, is it true that there was an Ecumenical Council which condemned Universalism or am I mistaken?

yes, the 5th which was affirmed by the 6th.
 
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Light of the East

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I didn't misread your post. you have this un-Orthodox understanding of what God's wrath is, which makes you afraid of something that we don't actually believe.

Would you be so kind as to further explicate what you believe that I believe and how it differs from Orthodoxy? Thank you.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I didn't misread your post. you have this un-Orthodox understanding of what God's wrath is, which makes you afraid of something that we don't actually believe.

Would you be so kind as to further explicate what you believe that I believe and how it differs from Orthodoxy? Thank you.

you already know. we've been through this many times before. the wrath of God is His love in the face of the unrepentant sinner.
 
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Light of the East

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Father, is it true that there was an Ecumenical Council which condemned Universalism or am I mistaken?

You are not being told the whole story. You know, the Internet has become a wonderful research tool. It's just a shame that A.) it didn't exist when I was a deceived Fundamentalist Bible-thumper type and B.) that I wasn't doing my due diligence with what was available when I was a Fundamentalist.

Modern scholarship has come to the agreement that the Fifth Ecumenical Council was interfered with by Emperor Justinian. It was his desire that certain condemnations of Apokatastasis be inserted into the Canons of the Council, and if I remember correctly, this was done after the conclusion of the council. There were nine specific condemnations which were added by Justinian. I find this stunning on several levels.

First of all, the promise of being led into all truth, given to the Apostles in the Gospel of John, was to the office of the bishops of the Church and not a meddlesome lay person with a bad temper and a history of killing those who disagreed with him. Indeed, in his push for power and authority over the council, he had Pope Virgilius arrested and detained. The whole behavioral pattern of the emperor suggests that he felt that as the head of the earthly power in Constantinople, he had a right to interject his beliefs into the council.

It is further known that Emperor Justinian's desire for the eastern lands within the Roman Empire was the consolidation of power and the unity of the empire under him. All his actions were geared to this end, whether it be killing troublesome enemies or making his own theological ideals to become dogma. Indeed, we find in Justinian the following writing which exposes what his goal was in opposing Apokatastasis:

It will render men slothful, and discourage them from keeping the commandments of God. It will encourage them to depart from the narrow way, leading them by deception into ways that are wide and easy.

Apparently, loving Jesus Christ for the beauty of his love and His sacrifice on the Cross wouldn't work in Justinian's opinion.

The Sixth Council was called for a specific reason: to oppose the Three Chapters as given by Theodore of Mopsuestia and to condemn the strange ideas of Origen regarding the pre-existence of souls. Apokatastasis was linked to this in a manner which makes people think that the council condemned it in its original canons.

As for the Sixth Council upholding the condemnation of Apokatastasis, note the following extract from the writings of that Council:

But neither do we stop here. We take the pious utterances of the one hundred and sixty-five God-bearing Fathers who assembled upon the ground of this Imperial City in the reign of Justinian, who became our Emperor and who passed away at the termination of his pious career, and, recognizing them to have been inspired and uttered by the (Holy) Spirit, we teach them outright to our posterity; which Fathers indeed as a Council anathematized and consigned to abomination Theodore of Mopsuestia, the teacher of Nestorius, and in addition Origen and Didymus and Evagrius, who joined hands in refashioning the Greek myths and recounting to us periods and mutations of certain bodies and souls, prompted by raptures and hallucinations of the mind, and in drunken revelry impiously exulting over the resurrection of the dead; as well as what had been written by Theodoret against the right faith and correct belief and against the twelves heads (or chapters) of blissful Cyril; and also the so-called letter of Ibas.

Not a word against Apokatastasis. Not one. And no condemnation of either St. Isaac the Syrian or St. Gregory of Nyssa. This alone should make it abundantly clear that Apokatastasis was not the horrible heresy that the modern Church has come to make it out to be.

We should continue this in the debate room. This is not the place for this.

One thing I am finding out more and more and more is that hierarchs of the Church - both East and West - have been less than Simon pure when it comes to handling the Word of God and the Gospel, often bending Scripture and doing things more from an agenda they had rather than the purity of truth. And I find that appalling.
 
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Light of the East

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you already know. we've been through this many times before. the wrath of God is His love in the face of the unrepentant sinner.

Okay. Yes. Now remember you are speaking to someone who has been in a Western mindset and has been taught a Western (i.e. Angry God) agenda for over 50 years. My point in the blog piece was to try to show that this mindset is not condign with the abundant and incredible love of our heavenly Father for us. If anything, it is a rebuke to those who teach God as angry and waiting to whup up on sinners. He is waiting always to gather up His garments and run to us in love.
 
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Not David

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You are not being told the whole story. You know, the Internet has become a wonderful research tool. It's just a shame that A.) it didn't exist when I was a deceived Fundamentalist Bible-thumper type and B.) that I wasn't doing my due diligence with what was available when I was a Fundamentalist.

Modern scholarship has come to the agreement that the Fifth Ecumenical Council was interfered with by Emperor Justinian. It was his desire that certain condemnations of Apokatastasis be inserted into the Canons of the Council, and if I remember correctly, this was done after the conclusion of the council. There were nine specific condemnations which were added by Justinian. I find this stunning on several levels.

First of all, the promise of being led into all truth, given to the Apostles in the Gospel of John, was to the office of the bishops of the Church and not a meddlesome lay person with a bad temper and a history of killing those who disagreed with him. Indeed, in his push for power and authority over the council, he had Pope Virgilius arrested and detained. The whole behavioral pattern of the emperor suggests that he felt that as the head of the earthly power in Constantinople, he had a right to interject his beliefs into the council.

It is further known that Emperor Justinian's desire for the eastern lands within the Roman Empire was the consolidation of power and the unity of the empire under him. All his actions were geared to this end, whether it be killing troublesome enemies or making his own theological ideals to become dogma. Indeed, we find in Justinian the following writing which exposes what his goal was in opposing Apokatastasis:

It will render men slothful, and discourage them from keeping the commandments of God. It will encourage them to depart from the narrow way, leading them by deception into ways that are wide and easy.

Apparently, loving Jesus Christ for the beauty of his love and His sacrifice on the Cross wouldn't work in Justinian's opinion.

The Sixth Council was called for a specific reason: to oppose the Three Chapters as given by Theodore of Mopsuestia and to condemn the strange ideas of Origen regarding the pre-existence of souls. Apokatastasis was linked to this in a manner which makes people think that the council condemned it in its original canons.

As for the Sixth Council upholding the condemnation of Apokatastasis, note the following extract from the writings of that Council:

But neither do we stop here. We take the pious utterances of the one hundred and sixty-five God-bearing Fathers who assembled upon the ground of this Imperial City in the reign of Justinian, who became our Emperor and who passed away at the termination of his pious career, and, recognizing them to have been inspired and uttered by the (Holy) Spirit, we teach them outright to our posterity; which Fathers indeed as a Council anathematized and consigned to abomination Theodore of Mopsuestia, the teacher of Nestorius, and in addition Origen and Didymus and Evagrius, who joined hands in refashioning the Greek myths and recounting to us periods and mutations of certain bodies and souls, prompted by raptures and hallucinations of the mind, and in drunken revelry impiously exulting over the resurrection of the dead; as well as what had been written by Theodoret against the right faith and correct belief and against the twelves heads (or chapters) of blissful Cyril; and also the so-called letter of Ibas.

Not a word against Apokatastasis. Not one. And no condemnation of either St. Isaac the Syrian or St. Gregory of Nyssa. This alone should make it abundantly clear that Apokatastasis was not the horrible heresy that the modern Church has come to make it out to be.

We should continue this in the debate room. This is not the place for this.

One thing I am finding out more and more and more is that hierarchs of the Church - both East and West - have been less than Simon pure when it comes to handling the Word of God and the Gospel, often bending Scripture and doing things more from an agenda they had rather than the purity of truth. And I find that appalling.
Oh yes, the scholars know God better than the Ecumenical Councils.
 
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Not David

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Okay. Yes. Now remember you are speaking to someone who has been in a Western mindset and has been taught a Western (i.e. Angry God) agenda for over 50 years. My point in the blog piece was to try to show that this mindset is not condign with the abundant and incredible love of our heavenly Father for us. If anything, it is a rebuke to those who teach God as angry and waiting to whup up on sinners. He is waiting always to gather up His garments and run to us in love.
The Eastern mindset also includes hell.
 
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Light of the East

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The Eastern mindset also includes hell.

As I mentioned, if we wish to debate this further, in order to keep the rules of this forum, we should go to the debate room here at TAW.
 
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ArmyMatt

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You are not being told the whole story. You know, the Internet has become a wonderful research tool. It's just a shame that A.) it didn't exist when I was a deceived Fundamentalist Bible-thumper type and B.) that I wasn't doing my due diligence with what was available when I was a Fundamentalist.

Modern scholarship has come to the agreement that the Fifth Ecumenical Council was interfered with by Emperor Justinian. It was his desire that certain condemnations of Apokatastasis be inserted into the Canons of the Council, and if I remember correctly, this was done after the conclusion of the council. There were nine specific condemnations which were added by Justinian. I find this stunning on several levels.

First of all, the promise of being led into all truth, given to the Apostles in the Gospel of John, was to the office of the bishops of the Church and not a meddlesome lay person with a bad temper and a history of killing those who disagreed with him. Indeed, in his push for power and authority over the council, he had Pope Virgilius arrested and detained. The whole behavioral pattern of the emperor suggests that he felt that as the head of the earthly power in Constantinople, he had a right to interject his beliefs into the council.

It is further known that Emperor Justinian's desire for the eastern lands within the Roman Empire was the consolidation of power and the unity of the empire under him. All his actions were geared to this end, whether it be killing troublesome enemies or making his own theological ideals to become dogma. Indeed, we find in Justinian the following writing which exposes what his goal was in opposing Apokatastasis:

It will render men slothful, and discourage them from keeping the commandments of God. It will encourage them to depart from the narrow way, leading them by deception into ways that are wide and easy.

Apparently, loving Jesus Christ for the beauty of his love and His sacrifice on the Cross wouldn't work in Justinian's opinion.

The Sixth Council was called for a specific reason: to oppose the Three Chapters as given by Theodore of Mopsuestia and to condemn the strange ideas of Origen regarding the pre-existence of souls. Apokatastasis was linked to this in a manner which makes people think that the council condemned it in its original canons.

As for the Sixth Council upholding the condemnation of Apokatastasis, note the following extract from the writings of that Council:

But neither do we stop here. We take the pious utterances of the one hundred and sixty-five God-bearing Fathers who assembled upon the ground of this Imperial City in the reign of Justinian, who became our Emperor and who passed away at the termination of his pious career, and, recognizing them to have been inspired and uttered by the (Holy) Spirit, we teach them outright to our posterity; which Fathers indeed as a Council anathematized and consigned to abomination Theodore of Mopsuestia, the teacher of Nestorius, and in addition Origen and Didymus and Evagrius, who joined hands in refashioning the Greek myths and recounting to us periods and mutations of certain bodies and souls, prompted by raptures and hallucinations of the mind, and in drunken revelry impiously exulting over the resurrection of the dead; as well as what had been written by Theodoret against the right faith and correct belief and against the twelves heads (or chapters) of blissful Cyril; and also the so-called letter of Ibas.

Not a word against Apokatastasis. Not one. And no condemnation of either St. Isaac the Syrian or St. Gregory of Nyssa. This alone should make it abundantly clear that Apokatastasis was not the horrible heresy that the modern Church has come to make it out to be.

We should continue this in the debate room. This is not the place for this.

One thing I am finding out more and more and more is that hierarchs of the Church - both East and West - have been less than Simon pure when it comes to handling the Word of God and the Gospel, often bending Scripture and doing things more from an agenda they had rather than the purity of truth. And I find that appalling.

modern scholarship forgets that all subsequent councils affirm that universalism is a heresy, because they affirm the 5th. if this was just an imperial overreach, the SAINTS of subsequent synods would not have agreed.

modern scholarship tends to forget that earlier Fathers also condemned universalism.
 
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