Passionless God’s wrath

[Not David]

Orthodox believe in the wrath of God, but not in the same way that Conservative Protestant Christians, but in a passionless way and part of God’s love. Nevertheless, it is difficult for me to understand wrath in a non "anger" way. How could you describe God’s wrath?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good topic. It's along the lines of something I asked our priest to go into more detail explaining when we resume our study sessions.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Biblically.

Welcome to TAW.

Just to prevent any misunderstandings - I suspect the OP was looking for a more indepth Orthodox view. I'm afraid in this case, GotQuestions isn't providing that answer.


To any posting in this thread:
I'd just like to prevent any debates or such things that are not allowed in congregational forums.

 

[AMM]

If I'm not mistaken in my understanding -- wrath isn't a characteristic of God so much as it is our interpretation of something we don't like. It's like when a little kid gets upset and thinks that their parent is the meanest in the whole world because they couldn't eat a cookie. The parent is loving the child. But the child experiences it as suffering.

Holiness is like fire. When the unclean things touch holiness in the Bible, they burn and are destroyed. Not good. But that's not the fault of the Holy thing. When someone is prepared for God's worthiness, they experience it as illumination and joy, like Moses when he came down from the mountain

 

[Not David]

So how would the verse in John 3:36 relate to the topic?
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Or the children of wrath part?

"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—"
Ephesians 2:3-5

 

[AMM]

So how would the verse in John 3:36 relate to the topic?
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Faith is the most essential part of the Christian life, except love (which cannot exist apart from faith). What means ‘He will reward every man according to his works’?

Hebrews 11 also addresses this. Without faith, we are not holy, and therefore God's holiness burns us.

Or the children of wrath part?

"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—"
Ephesians 2:3-5

Psalm 50/51. "Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Before we are baptized, we are in Satan's realm, that's why there is an exorcism before baptism.

 

[Antoni]

wrath is a human term we project upon God, whether we are an illuminated author of a book in the Bible or a laymen reading it, so that we can try and understand to the best of our ability, using our fallen and limited minds, with limited language, the action or attitude of the Almighty. But because that is how it appears to us, does not by necessity describe the fullness or actually the greater movement. Thus what may be actually more divine justice, we may call divine wrath, just as what we call divine kindness, we may call divine love.

 

[public hermit]

Orthodox believe in the wrath of God, but not in the same way that Conservative Protestant Christians, but in a passionless way and part of God’s love. Nevertheless, it is difficult for me to understand wrath in a non "anger" way. How could you describe God’s wrath?

God's wrath occurs when sin and evil function unhindered. God "turns them over" so to speak.

 

[Antoni]

And the wonder is that although these are all rooted in love, namely God’s justice, kindness and wrath, we differentiate them according to how we experience them.

 

[buzuxi02]

He punishes us when we stray. Since society is more individualistic nowadays its taboo to recognize your own tribe as being punished collectively even though culturally it was common. We see this in the OT when the Jews strayed and later Jews acknowledged their just chastisements. Or in the Byzantine era when rampant sin was seen as also adversely affecting their geo-political events and icons are brought out and processed in the streets. (Still done in traditional Orthodox nations)
Even a common saying amongst Greeks when a new sinful fad is accepted amongst them, "that why God punishes us".
Today it's all coincidence no underlying spiritual reasons and saying God is punishing means your a wack job . Everyone is divided into their own individual niche clan so you cant collectively group everyone together even though they all maybe christian.Imagine a prophet today preaching to reform his own culture from sinful ways, it would be intolerant not to tolerate certain things, and being intolerant is the sin.

 

[Not David]

Faith is the most essential part of the Christian life, except love (which cannot exist apart from faith). What means ‘He will reward every man according to his works’?

Hebrews 11 also addresses this. Without faith, we are not holy, and therefore God's holiness burns us.


Psalm 50/51. "Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Before we are baptized, we are in Satan's realm, that's why there is an exorcism before baptism.

I remember there was a thread in General Theology about we abiding in God's wrath until we are justified, and they used the verse in Ephesians. Would you agree with their statement?

 

[AMM]

I remember there was a thread in General Theology about we abiding in God's wrath until we are justified, and they used the verse in Ephesians. Would you agree with their statement?

not sure that I understand what they mean. Can you elaborate a bit more about what was said?

 

[Not David]

not sure that I understand what they mean. Can you elaborate a bit more about what was said?

That God's wrath remains in us until we convert and by using the "by nature children of wrath" part, they say it is a part of human nature and that even babies have God's wrath.

I don't know if that idea is present in Lutheranism.

 

[St. Helens]

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[Antoni]

That God's wrath remains in us until we convert and by using the "by nature children of wrath" part, they say it is a part of human nature and that even babies have God's wrath.

I don't know if that idea is present in Lutheranism.

As you know, it is a part of fallen human nature. Our corrupt nature has distorted the image of God in us, all on account of the fall, and we are now subject to death and the power of sin over us. We are conceived that way in our mother’s womb, as the Psalmist teaches, as we have inherited this nature from our fore-parents, Adam and Eve. Our personal sins since conception only add to that. This further distortion leads to further separation from God, and this wrath is an experience of separation from God on account of our sin. It is by baptism, through death and rebirth into Christ, whereby we shed this corruption are no longer children of wrath. Until , of course, we sin again and do not repent, for then we experience His wrath, which is our separation from Him. It is wrath because it our experience of separation from His love, from Him Who desires our salvation, just as it is the experience of darkness, which has no substance outside our experience, is the separation from light.

 

[ArmyMatt]

if God's wrath is of His love, then His very being exposes sin for what it is.

just imagine that exposure of your sin, only infinite and eternal.

 

[AMM]

That God's wrath remains in us until we convert and by using the "by nature children of wrath" part, they say it is a part of human nature and that even babies have God's wrath.

I don't know if that idea is present in Lutheranism.

I think I agree with what Antoni said. Yes, we are fallen. From the moment we are conceived. And there is no one who lives and does not sin - every day we add to our sins. If we repent, being in the Church, God's mercy heals us and sanctifies us. If we do not repent, we turn our back on God until eventually we experience his love as wrath. But I don't think converting means "invite Jesus into your heart", I think it means "turn away from sin in repentance and towards God" (constantly, every day, not just once)

The idea you're describing from GT is found in Lutheranism, but I'd say that what it actually means when a Lutheran says that is probably very different from what an Evangelical or the more Calvinist type would mean

 

[Antoni]

But I don't think converting means "invite Jesus into your heart", I think it means "turn away from sin in repentance and towards God" (constantly, every day, not just once)

Well said my friend! The Parable of the Prodigal which our Lord taught is the best analogy we can find. Did the son allow his father into his heart, as he sat filthy and starving in the muck of the pig’s pen? Yes, perhaps he did! Perhaps he did allow his mind to enter into his heart as he thought about his father and what he had lost. But them he immediately ‘came to himself’, noticed his own filth and and sinfulness, realized how he had separated himself from the one who loves him and provides for him, and then humbled himself, got up, and headed back to his father, to humbly pray for forgiveness and help. Allowing his father to enter into his heart started the process, but did not complete it, otherwise he would have still been eating the pig’s leftovers and mired in hopeless filth. Converting includes ‘coming to oneself’, realizing our sinfulness and dependence upon our Father, and then following the sure path back to Him in humility and repentance.

And when we do, He runs to us, embraces us, and saves us.

 

[Not David]

I think I agree with what Antoni said. Yes, we are fallen. From the moment we are conceived. And there is no one who lives and does not sin - every day we add to our sins. If we repent, being in the Church, God's mercy heals us and sanctifies us. If we do not repent, we turn our back on God until eventually we experience his love as wrath. But I don't think converting means "invite Jesus into your heart", I think it means "turn away from sin in repentance and towards God" (constantly, every day, not just once)

The idea you're describing from GT is found in Lutheranism, but I'd say that what it actually means when a Lutheran says that is probably very different from what an Evangelical or the more Calvinist type would mean

What about babies and the mentally ill? They don't sin.

 

[Antoni]

What about babies and the mentally ill? They don't sin.

Someone much greater in love and mercy will be making the call on those on the final day. His judgment, as always, will be just, and all who will see it, whether those entering into the Kingdom or not, will know it is just.