The Restitution Of All Things

[FineLinen]

What does that have to do with my point? You said there was "no Church" and I proved otherwise.
And why you rely in writings of men?

Dear Catechumen: You must get that bag off your head!

The Nature of Love

In the way of laying a foundation for understanding the relationship between God’s gift and His grace, I think we have to consider the relationship between those attributes of God that are particularly highlighted in scripture. It could be said that all the characteristics that are properly ascribed to the Divine Nature find their center in the truth that God is love, so that when God is described also, for instance, as light, spirit and consuming fire, such descriptions essentially explain the meaning and nature of divine love.

That God is light, speaks to us of the fact that it is the nature of love to enlighten, to GIVE understanding. God’s love is self-revelatory. It shines out of its essence and needs nothing outside of itself to make itself known. That God is spirit confronts us with the truth, that in spite of the propensity of divine love to subject itself to all that is adversarial to its existence, love is still, underneath all that hostility, universally and constitutionally pervasive. It is the spirit that constitutes all being, all existence. It’s what “makes the world go around,” from within, and is what gives all things their cohesiveness.

That God is a consuming fire encourages us to trust that the inner love-spirit essence of all things, from the inside out, will cleanse itself from all that seeks to defile it. The divine nature of love can be afflicted by such defilement but it can never in its essence be defiled. On this foundation rests our salvation.

So it is with the gift of God, and the graciousness of God. As it is true that when we speak of God as spirit, light, and consuming fire, we are essentially explaining the nature of love — those other attributes do not stand alongside love, they explain love as they are the unfolding of love’s nature, so when we speak of the grace of God, we are, really redundantly, explaining the nature of His gift; that it is, in fact, free. We are emphasizing the obvious, that God’s gift cannot be earned. It is, as all gifts should be, freely given. It is what it is — His gift. The grace of God is, to my understanding, simply God’s givingness.

God’s gift and God’s grace do not stand alongside one another. As Jesus said of His relationship with the Father, “I and the Father are One,” so also, God’s gift (Christ) and His grace (His givingness) are one. He is graciously giving. He gifts us out from His nature of givingness. Finally understood, God only has one gift for mankind, and that is the gift of His Son.

In Him are all the riches of the glory of God’s grace. We need to see the obvious, that Paul’s expression, “the glory of His grace” simply means, His grace’s glory. God is gloriously gracious, and we see grace’s glory in the face of Jesus Christ. In Him we see summed up the givingness of God, and NO decision on the part of man can frustrate the givingness of God. He WILL give Himself, in His Son, to all creation until all creation is full of His glory, so that all creation will come to realize its true inner constitution. This is the essence of the Kingdom of God. -John Gavazzoni-

 

[Not David]

Dear Catechumen: You must get that bag off your head!

The Nature of Love

In the way of laying a foundation for understanding the relationship between God’s gift and His grace, I think we have to consider the relationship between those attributes of God that are particularly highlighted in scripture. It could be said that all the characteristics that are properly ascribed to the Divine Nature find their center in the truth that God is love, so that when God is described also, for instance, as light, spirit and consuming fire, such descriptions essentially explain the meaning and nature of divine love.

That God is light, speaks to us of the fact that it is the nature of love to enlighten, to GIVE understanding. God’s love is self-revelatory. It shines out of its essence and needs nothing outside of itself to make itself known. That God is spirit confronts us with the truth, that in spite of the propensity of divine love to subject itself to all that is adversarial to its existence, love is still, underneath all that hostility, universally and constitutionally pervasive. It is the spirit that constitutes all being, all existence. It’s what “makes the world go around,” from within, and is what gives all things their cohesiveness.

That God is a consuming fire encourages us to trust that the inner love-spirit essence of all things, from the inside out, will cleanse itself from all that seeks to defile it. The divine nature of love can be afflicted by such defilement but it can never in its essence be defiled. On this foundation rests our salvation.

So it is with the gift of God, and the graciousness of God. As it is true that when we speak of God as spirit, light, and consuming fire, we are essentially explaining the nature of love — those other attributes do not stand alongside love, they explain love as they are the unfolding of love’s nature, so when we speak of the grace of God, we are, really redundantly, explaining the nature of His gift; that it is, in fact, free. We are emphasizing the obvious, that God’s gift cannot be earned. It is, as all gifts should be, freely given. It is what it is — His gift. The grace of God is, to my understanding, simply God’s givingness.

God’s gift and God’s grace do not stand alongside one another. As Jesus said of His relationship with the Father, “I and the Father are One,” so also, God’s gift (Christ) and His grace (His givingness) are one. He is graciously giving. He gifts us out from His nature of givingness. Finally understood, God only has one gift for mankind, and that is the gift of His Son.

In Him are all the riches of the glory of God’s grace. We need to see the obvious, that Paul’s expression, “the glory of His grace” simply means, His grace’s glory. God is gloriously gracious, and we see grace’s glory in the face of Jesus Christ. In Him we see summed up the givingness of God, and NO decision on the part of man can frustrate the givingness of God. He WILL give Himself, in His Son, to all creation until all creation is full of His glory, so that all creation will come to realize its true inner constitution. This is the essence of the Kingdom of God. -John Gavazzoni-

Yeah, God's love is a consuming fire, but not everyone will enjoy that fire.

 

[sdowney717]

This restoration is also known as the regeneration and Jesus spoke of it here.
And notice, you had to be worthy to partake of this time also called the age of the Resurrection. The wicked are not nor ever will be worthy, this is all about God making all things new, but even after God said that, He still mentions those who are outside of the city have their part in lake of fire.

The ones who left all to follow Christ in their life in this current evil age are the ones who gain eternal life in the age to come.
Matthew 19:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Luke 20:34-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Rev 21
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Technically God says He makes all things new. To me, means He creates the Lake of fire as a new thing at the end, and the wicked dead are resurrected with new unglorified bodies and then they are cast into the lake of fire where they remain forever dead to God. The Lake of Fire is the second death.

 

[FineLinen]

This restoration is also known as the regeneration and Jesus spoke of it here.
And notice, you had to be worthy to partake of this time also called the age of the Resurrection. The wicked are not nor ever will be worthy, this is all about God making all things new, but even after God said that, He still mentions those who are outside of the city have their part in lake of fire.

The ones who left all to follow Christ in their life in this current evil age are the ones who gain eternal life in the age to come.
Matthew 19:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Luke 20:34-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Rev 21
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Technically God says He makes all things new. To me, means He creates the Lake of fire as a new thing at the end, and the wicked dead are resurrected with new unglorified bodies and then they are cast into the lake of fire where they remain forever dead to God.

Dear S.D.: The Lake of Theion is as new as the God who IS consuming Fire!

Search "forever dead"

Your search query has yielded no results.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Some clean up was done. Folks, please refrain from flaming each other. ​

 

[sdowney717]

Dear S.D.: The Lake of Theion is as new as the God who IS consuming Fire!

Search "forever dead"

Your search query has yielded no results.

No God is not the Lake of Fire. The lake is where all the evil goes to be at the end of the age.
God though dwells in the New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven and HE lives with mankind on the new earth, and entirely separate place.

The devil and the beast also are thrown into that lake, and Jesus said they have no place with Him. They never live together in peace, in fact the devil at the end is still blaspheming and cursing God right till he is cast into the fire.
That burning flame is not God. God is also associated with fiery flame, but the lake of fire is not where God is.
Daniel 7
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [pompous words.

Vision of the Ancient of Days
9 “I watched till thrones were [put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

 

[FineLinen]

No God is not the Lake of Fire. The lake is where all the evil goes to be at the end of the age.
God though dwells in the New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven and HE lives with mankind on the new earth, and entirely separate place.

The devil and the beast also are thrown into that lake, and Jesus said they have no place with Him. They never live together in peace, in fact the devil at the end is still blaspheming and cursing God right till he is cast into the fire.
That burning flame is not God. God is also associated with fiery flame, but the lake of fire is not where God is.
Daniel 7
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [pompous words.

Vision of the Ancient of Days
9 “I watched till thrones were [put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

Dear S.D. I suggest you explore at your convenience the root of theion.

 

[sdowney717]

Devil is destroyed and consumed forever and will never again have any part in the Kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God will fill the whole earth. So we have heaven and earth joined as one, but hell, death, devil, wicked all have their part in the lake of fire, which is separated from God.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

Daniel’s Visions Interpreted
15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

 

[sdowney717]

Notice it says depart from ME , so not joined with God in the Lake of Fire where the devil is.
If they depart from God to go into the Lake of Fire, how can they be going to be with God in the lake of fire, see that makes no sense does it.

Luke 13:26-28 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’
27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

 

[sdowney717]

Dear S.D.: The Lake of Theion is as new as the God who IS consuming Fire!

Search "forever dead"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Sure here you go, I suggest everyone interested in those words will be interested.

Everlasting Punishment - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

II. The meaning of “eternal.”The Biblical doctrine is that the ungodly are subject to punishment without end after death. The important question is this—Does aiōnios mean “endless”? Aiōnios comes from aiōn, which means “the age.” Plato, however, used it of the Eternal Being compared to Time. The LXX used it to tr. the Heb. ’ōlām, which contains both the idea of a long time and the metaphysical idea of eternity in the sense of unending. Whether or not aiōnios indicates a long period of time or endlessness therefore must be determined by the context. For example, when the term is used by John to speak of eternal life, the emphasis is on the qualitative rather than the quantitative, although the very nature of the quality of the life being described would presuppose its being unending. A passage where it is clearly used in contrast to that which only lasts for a time is 2 Corinthians 4:18, “Because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.” That the term aiōnios is used in the same passage to describe both the condition of the saved and the lost, is the strongest evidence that the NT intends to teach the endlessness of punishment in hell.

 

[FineLinen]

Sure here you go, I suggest everyone interested in those words will be interested.

Everlasting Punishment - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

II. The meaning of “eternal.”The Biblical doctrine is that the ungodly are subject to punishment without end after death. The important question is this—Does aiōnios mean “endless”? Aiōnios comes from aiōn, which means “the age.” Plato, however, used it of the Eternal Being compared to Time. The LXX used it to tr. the Heb. ’ōlām, which contains both the idea of a long time and the metaphysical idea of eternity in the sense of unending. Whether or not aiōnios indicates a long period of time or endlessness therefore must be determined by the context. For example, when the term is used by John to speak of eternal life, the emphasis is on the qualitative rather than the quantitative, although the very nature of the quality of the life being described would presuppose its being unending. A passage where it is clearly used in contrast to that which only lasts for a time is 2 Corinthians 4:18, “Because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.” That the term aiōnios is used in the same passage to describe both the condition of the saved and the lost, is the strongest evidence that the NT intends to teach the endlessness of punishment in hell.

Dear S.D.: Much thanks for the Bible Gateway site.

Aionios is indeed used in the same passage to describe both aionios kolasis and aionios zao. St. John articulates the scope of aionios indeed as quality. As such, aionios life is precisely that: quality. The quality of aionios zao is knowing God. Duration is NOT encapsulated in aionios. The life of God certainly has unendingless, but not on the foundation of aionios, NOT!

On the foundation of aionios zao, aionios kolasis stands as a quality of punishment, not unending by a stretch!

God punishes with a purpose of change & transformation, not mindless chastisement!

 

[FineLinen]

Thanks for that site. I'm going to look into it. I've always looked into this issue, and haven't drawn an official conclusion, but one thing I have to say. I'm suffering from watching my mother decline exponentially with dementia, and I've agonized and cried over the notion of God permanently separating me and my mother forever (I am almost positive she isn't saved). This doesn't seem right. I've been told that we will forget that our loved ones ever existed, if we go to heaven and they don't, and that we won't remember them anymore. This doesn't sound right - I know that God's ways and God's logic transcends human ways and human logic, the notion seems really evil to not be allowed to see my mother again once she passes. It's as if our mother-daughter relationship meant nothing on this earth, if it's only going to be forgotten about later on. I have the strongest bond with my mother, and I don't quite grasp the notion (sorry, I keep using that word lol) of God permanently separating us.

Dear Lady Bug: There is no such thing as God permanently separating us. I feel for you and your precious mother. I can only declare what the Lord declares>>>

"I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

"NOTHING shall separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus or Lord."

 

[FineLinen]

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks for that site. I'm going to look into it. I've always looked into this issue, and haven't drawn an official conclusion, but one thing I have to say. I'm suffering from watching my mother decline exponentially with dementia, and I've agonized and cried over the notion of God permanently separating me and my mother forever (I am almost positive she isn't saved). This doesn't seem right. I've been told that we will forget that our loved ones ever existed, if we go to heaven and they don't, and that we won't remember them anymore. This doesn't sound right - I know that God's ways and God's logic transcends human ways and human logic, the notion seems really evil to not be allowed to see my mother again once she passes. It's as if our mother-daughter relationship meant nothing on this earth, if it's only going to be forgotten about later on. I have the strongest bond with my mother, and I don't quite grasp the notion (sorry, I keep using that word lol) of God permanently separating us.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Lady Bug]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Interesting, I was going to ask you about that one lol. Is the second "all" the same as the first "all" in the Greek? It looks like they are the same "all" but I've been wondering this for awhile.

 

[Lady Bug]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Uh oh, I've run into a problem. The next verse talks about exactly which people will be made alive, and it only refers to those who are Christ's.

 

[Oldmantook]

Uh oh, I've run into a problem. The next verse talks about exactly which people will be made alive, and it only refers to those who are Christ's.

Yes all in Christ as there is no other way. Jesus will reconcile all to himself (eventually). If not, then Adam's transgression is greater than Christ's sacrifice which contradicts Rom 5. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man.

 

[FineLinen]

Yes all in Christ as there is no other way. Jesus will reconcile all to himself (eventually). If not, then Adam's transgression is greater than Christ's sacrifice which contradicts Rom 5. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man.

 

[Saint Steven]

Interesting, I was going to ask you about that one lol. Is the second "all" the same as the first "all" in the Greek? It looks like they are the same "all" but I've been wondering this for awhile.

Yes. Both identical. Definition below.

all
πάντες (pantes)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's Greek 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 Corinthians 15:22 all will be made alive or vivified Article

 

[Saint Steven]

Uh oh, I've run into a problem. The next verse talks about exactly which people will be made alive, and it only refers to those who are Christ's.

We need to add one more verse to get the time frame. (before the end)
Eventually every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Phil.2:10-11 below)
The Bible says a person can't do that except by the Spirit. (1Cor.12:3 below)
And that if we declare with our mouth "Jesus is Lord", we will be saved. (Rom.10:9 below)
Therefore ALL will be made alive eventually. Also compare Romans 5:18; Romans 11:32; Colossians 1:20.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.