The Restitution Of All Things

BNR32FAN

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Dear BNR: You most certainly do not know about "that". My suggestion to you, take some time and acquaint your thinking with a remarkable treatise by Dr. Hanson.

God is the God of ta panta!

I’d rather just stick with the scriptures and early church writings.
 
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FineLinen

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I’d rather just stick with the scriptures and early church writings.

Dear BNR: Stick with the Scriptures and remember what the Master did>>>

"Then opened He their minds to understand the Scriptures..."

2000 + years have trotted by and His words stand!

How wide has our minds been opened?
 
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hedrick

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I think there are other examples of this in the gospels that have been bothersome. They seem to contradict salvation by grace and rather use works as the basis. I am wondering if these work into the Universalism view somehow. Which would bring the gospels into Universalism.
You ask about justification in the context of Mat 25:46.

Paul doesn’t seem to teach that all humans are justified. We’re justified by grace through faith. Those who are justified are resurrected first at the end, before the powers are defeated and the rest freed. So I don’t think there’s a real problem with justification here. The goats aren’t justified, but that needn’t mean they are permanently lost.

If all we had were the Synoptic Gospels, I'd say that the enemies of God are punished, and even Jesus' followers are held accountable, but I wouldn't push either unending torment or universal reconciliation. Nor would I see accountability of his followers as contradicting justification by faith (which has its counterparts in the Synoptics in terms of God's desire to go after even the lost, and his seemingly endless willingness to forgive).

I don’t think the Gospels have the same explicit vision that Paul does of everything coming out right in the end. But I don’t think they mandate never-ending torment either. The Synoptics are more interested in the fact that the Kingdom is coming now, and our responsibility to live in it. Mark 13 and parallels do talk about the end, but it’s a description of what leads up to it, not the restored heavens and earth that follows it.

John does have its echoes of Paul, e.g. John 12:31-32: “Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” Much like 1 Cor 15, this sees Jesus’ job as judge to defeat the powers and then draw all people to himself.

Of course some of the prophets have a vision of the restored earth at the end. The end of the Rev is based on that.

The NT was written by a number of people in rather different situations. You’re never going to turn it into a theology textbook. So there will always be loose ends. But I think there’s enough support
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Well, that's a nice web page. But I'm pretty sure it was created by humans, not the Holy Spirit.

You asked what The Holy Spirit was doing in The Church. I posted what The Holy Spirit is doing.


.
 
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FineLinen

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The Scope Of Restitution =

"But (now) to each one of us was (is) given the Grace down from (in accord with) the measure of the undeserved gift of the Christ. For this reason He (it) is constantly saying, “Going up (stepping up; ascending) into a height (unto [the] summit) He led (leads) captive a captive multitude [or: He led “captivity” captive] He gave (gives) gifts to mankind (or: to/for the men).” Now (but) this “He went up (ascended),” what is it if not (except) that He also descended (stepped down) into the lower parts (the under regions) of the earth (land)? The One stepping down (descending) is Himself also the One stepping (going) up (ascending) far above (back up over) all of the heavens, to the end that He may make the Whole full [or: may fill up everything (the All)]. -Jonathan Mitchell N.T.-

"For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

“There is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, who rules over all, acts through all, and dwells in all. Yet to each of us individually grace was given, measured out with the munificence of Christ. For this reason Scripture says: ‘He re-ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and gave gifts to men.’ (Now this ‘re-ascended’ --what does it mean but that He had first descended into the lower regions of the earth? He who descended is the same as He who ascended again far above all the Heavens in order to fill the universe.”

Note

He will fill the Universe (everything)!

“For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved thru water…Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead…for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
 
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FineLinen

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Love’s Goal

All that love is, God is, for God is love. As the negative side of love is unselfish - seeks not her own - so her positive side is concern for others, a deep, ardent, all consuming concern: dauntless, self-sacrificing, invincible. “Love never fails.” Such is the divine essence and this it is that is imparted to the creature.

There can be no self-complacency with God, neither could He provide a self-satisfied salvation. Divine joy is in the fullness of love, and love is all-embracing.

To speak of a happy shepherd with an incomplete flock, or even of a happy flock with comrades missing, would be to malign both sheep and shepherd.

Heaven’s joys will be full only when sin’s sorrow cease. “Tis of mine” will be the yearning cry of the Good Shepherd spirit in the bosom of both saint and Saviour until the last of all the lost has been gathered home. Love cannot omit; His soul travail was for all. Neither can love abandon or forget. His purpose, as His promise, is “until He find it”. Thus it is that He is yet to “see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied.” And surely we too shall be satisfied when conformed to this likeness. Oh, the fullness of heaven’s joy when sin’s sorrows shall have ceased! -D. Buchanan-

99 is NOT enough!

 
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Saint Steven

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… The NT was written by a number of people in rather different situations. You’re never going to turn it into a theology textbook. So there will always be loose ends. But I think there’s enough support
Thanks for your reply. I especially like your last paragraph quoted above.
You make two great points that most do not understand.
1) The Bible is NOT a theological/doctrinal book.
2) There will always be loose ends.

To continue my point (I haven't done any work on this), I recall parables that end with the participants being divided according to their works, or what is happening. For example, the parable of the talents and the parable of the wedding banquet. And also the Ten Virgins (lamps), which I think you had mentioned earlier.

But the main point is that there are things other than faith in Jesus Christ determining the path in the afterlife. Which is contrary to Damnationism, unless someone takes the salvation by works approach.

Matthew 25:28-30
“‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 22:11-14
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
 
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Saint Steven

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tampasteve

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MOD HAT ON

This thread has has ANOTHER cleaning. Please do not continue to goad or flame, if it happens further the thread could be closed.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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BNR32FAN

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Theophilus, (160-181 A.D.) “Bishop of Antioch.” (3) And God showed great kindness to man in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but, as it were by a kind of banishment, cast him out of Paradise, in order that, having by punishment expiated within an appointed time the sin, and having been disciplined, he should afterward be recalled.—Theophilus. To Autolycus, Book 2, chap. 26.

This is about Adam, it is not about someone who was cast out of heaven but was cast out of the garden of Eden. This has nothing to do with punishment for those who do not repent. If anyone wishes to view the context of this quote feel free to click on this link and see exactly what Theophilus was actually talking about.

CHURCH FATHERS: To Autolycus, Book II (Theophilus of Antioch)

However if your interested in seeing what Theophilus actually wrote about the punishment for those who don’t repent here’s what he wrote in Autolycus Book 1 chapter 14

Theophilus To Autolycus, Book I chapter 14


Therefore, do not be sceptical, but believe; for I myself also used to disbelieve that this would take place, but now, having taken these things into consideration, I believe. At the same time, I met with the sacred Scriptures of the holy prophets, who also by the Spirit of God foretold the things that have already happened, just as they came to pass, and the things now occurring as they are now happening, and things future in the order in which they shall be accomplished. Admitting, therefore, the proof which events happening as predicted afford, I do not disbelieve, but I believe, obedient to God, whom, if you please, do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. Yet these also have spoken beforehand of the punishments that are to light upon the profane and unbelieving, in order that none be left without a witness, or be able to say, “We have not heard, neither have we known.” But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. For He who gave the mouth for speech, and formed the ear to hear, and made the eye to see, will examine all things, and will judge righteous judgment, rendering merited awards to each. To those who by patient continuance in well-doing Romans 2:7 seek immortality, He will give life everlasting, joy, peace, rest, and abundance of good things, which neither has eye seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man to conceive. 1 Corinthians 2:9 But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish, Romans 2:8-9 and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men. Since you said, “Show me your God,” this is my God, and I counsel you to fear Him and to trust Him.

That’s two false claims of early church writers advocating universalism. Iranaeus and Theophilus taught eternal punishment. And of course I will provide a link for anyone interested in validating my quote.

CHURCH FATHERS: To Autolycus, Book I (Theophilus of Antioch)
 
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FineLinen

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This is about Adam, it is not about someone who was cast out of heaven but was cast out of the garden of Eden. This has nothing to do with punishment for those who do not repent. If anyone wishes to view the context of this quote feel free to click on this link and see exactly what Theophilus was actually talking about.

CHURCH FATHERS: To Autolycus, Book II (Theophilus of

Antioch)

However if your interested in seeing what Theophilus actually wrote about the punishment for those who don’t repent here’s what he wrote in Autolycus Book 1 chapter 14

Theophilus To Autolycus, Book I chapter 14


Therefore, do not be sceptical, but believe; for I myself also used to disbelieve that this would take place, but now, having taken these things into consideration, I believe. At the same time, I met with the sacred Scriptures of the holy prophets, who also by the Spirit of God foretold the things that have already happened, just as they came to pass, and the things now occurring as they are now happening, and things future in the order in which they shall be accomplished. Admitting, therefore, the proof which events happening as predicted afford, I do not disbelieve, but I believe, obedient to God, whom, if you please, do you also submit to, believing Him, lest if now you continue unbelieving, you be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments; which punishments, when they had been foretold by the prophets, the later-born poets and philosophers stole from the holy Scriptures, to make their doctrines worthy of credit. Yet these also have spoken beforehand of the punishments that are to light upon the profane and unbelieving, in order that none be left without a witness, or be able to say, “We have not heard, neither have we known.” But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. For He who gave the mouth for speech, and formed the ear to hear, and made the eye to see, will examine all things, and will judge righteous judgment, rendering merited awards to each. To those who by patient continuance in well-doing Romans 2:7 seek immortality, He will give life everlasting, joy, peace, rest, and abundance of good things, which neither has eye seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man to conceive. 1 Corinthians 2:9 But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish, Romans 2:8-9 and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men. Since you said, “Show me your God,” this is my God, and I counsel you to fear Him and to trust Him.

That’s two false claims of early church writers advocating universalism. Iranaeus and Theophilus taught eternal punishment. And of course I will provide a link for anyone interested in validating my quote.

CHURCH FATHERS: To Autolycus, Book I (Theophilus of Antioch)

My friend BNR: My confidence rests not in the Church fathers, many of whom grasped the Wider Hope, but in the Author of hope who reaches to the radical all as the Hope of the hopeless.
 
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FineLinen

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This is about Adam, it is not about someone who was cast out of heaven but was cast out of the garden of Eden.

My friend BNR: Bingo!

Who prevails? Adam and his fallingness or the Last Adam as the One who makes the polus righteous?

EVERY knee, every tongue, in every dimension IN/EN the Master!
 
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BNR32FAN

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My friend BNR: Bingo!

Who prevails? Adam and his fallingness or the Last Adam as the One who makes the polus righteous?

EVERY knee, every tongue, in every dimension IN/EN the Master!


“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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FineLinen

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“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Dear BNR: You did not answer the question!

Who prevails Adam 1 or the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ?
 
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FineLinen

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  1. "My friend, you can't just wish it away. The prodigal brother, the grumpy day labourers and the whiney disciples who said they forsook all to follow Jesus - all felt they got short-changed. But what did our Lord tell them?

    Look, conditionalism has some truth in it: SIN will be annihilated, and the sinner reborn as a new man in Christ. Divine destruction is always followed by a restorative miracle. So we see the destiny of the nations from their inception in Noah's sons, through the promise of the Abrahamic covenant sealed at Calvary, ultimately come to fruition and delivered (on time and on budget lol) - they get baptised in fire (20:9&14) and invited to enter through the open gates to worship at the throne (21:26) and receive healing from the leaves of the tree of life (22:2).

    Leading inexorably to the final blessing and conclusion: And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. So there's no need for any 'picking through entrails' here, it's all a coherent and consistent narrative. Greatest story ever told, what a consummation! Don't be afraid to enjoy it."
    Dear Shrewd: What wonderful expressions are flowing from Australia! Is it possible Joy to the world is exactly that? The curse done away in a glorious Consummation!

    "No more let sin and sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow" >>>>

    "Far as the curse is found"

    Have we are listening ears on?

    Our Lord meets despair with triumph, death with metamorhoo as He lifts crawling creatures of earth into winged visions of transformation.

    Yes Sir Isaac, He comes to make His blessings flow>>>

    Far as the curse is found!

    The beloved disciple John saw it, brother Watts, no more death, no more tears, no more sorrow, no more curse: all swallowed up in the triumphant Unlimited Christ of Reconciliation!

    7f58a3898b78def226e2960e2918b13fefc9028c.jpeg

 
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FineLinen

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Calling Australia come in Shrewd Manager:

Your post was wonderful in its scope.

"My friend, you can't just wish it away. The prodigal brother, the grumpy day labourers and the whiney disciples who said they forsook all to follow Jesus - all felt they got short-changed. But what did our Lord tell them?

Look, conditionalism has some truth in it: SIN will be annihilated, and the sinner reborn as a new man in Christ. Divine destruction is always followed by a restorative miracle. So we see the destiny of the nations from their inception in Noah's sons, through the promise of the Abrahamic covenant sealed at Calvary, ultimately come to fruition and delivered (on time and on budget lol) - they get baptised in fire (20:9&14) and invited to enter through the open gates to worship at the throne (21:26) and receive healing from the leaves of the tree of life (22:2).

Leading inexorably to the final blessing and conclusion: And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. So there's no need for any 'picking through entrails' here, it's all a coherent and consistent narrative. Greatest story ever told, what a consummation! Don't be afraid to enjoy it."

"The Father Who Lost Two Sons" by Robert Farrar Capon | Facebook
 
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FineLinen

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John Gavazzoni

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/jgindex.htm

John's Testimony (short version)

"Christ opened my heart to Himself as a 16 year old teenager, having been raised in the Roman Catholic tradition. My conversion came about mostly through the witness of other teen-agers, including some in the gang I ran with.

Four of us organized a quartette almost immediately after we had turned to the Lord; and we sang, gave our testimonies and took turns preaching in churches and youth rallies all over...particularly the Pennsylvania area. I preached my first sermon that same year. I began in 'full time ministry' at age 19, traveling with a chalk-artist evangelist as his song-man and youth speaker. About two years after that, I went out on my own conducting local church evangelistic crusades and eventually was asked to join the Eastern Area Crusade Staff of Youth for Christ International, covering an eleven-states area. It was during that period that I came to the revelation of ultimate reconciliation, specifically while ministering at a summer Bible conference.

I was confronted by God suddenly and very unexpectedly while I was musing about sermons I'd preached on eternal hell. I heard the voice of the Lord say to me, 'Do you really believe that about me? In an instant, the answer leaped out of my spirit, 'No I don't Lord.' I more or less carried this truth in my heart for many years...enjoying what it meant to me in my relationship with our Heavenly Father. It wasn't until I was co-pastoring a church here in Thousand Oaks, Calif. that there were some occasions when I felt that I just had to be upfront about my conviction with several people.

One of the elders of the church became very upset and demanded that I either repent of that 'heresy' or be dismissed as pastor. Of course, I could not deny what God has shown me...even for the sake of 'unity'. So, I was relieved of my pastorate and declared a heretic by letter to all the evangelical churches in the area.

After doing some leading of home meetings, I eventually went into sales work to support my family, until years later, the Lord began to release me to ministry again through writing mostly at first, and then to speaking at conferences and churches which embraced the truth of the salvation of all."
 
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Saint Steven

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That council was eventually accepted by most of the West, sort of. It's dubious whether you can consider it an ecumenical council, as the Pope explicitly forbade it from meeting. But today it is generally considered ecumenical, because of its acceptance in the West.

Of course Protestants often accept only the first four councils. I tend to agree with that judgement. I even have questions about Chalcedon. The problem isn't its substance. It is about the best you could do using the philosophical concepts they were using. But the process behind it (and even Nicea, to be honest) wasn't really Christian. They should have done more work in getting various parties together. You really can't do theology by politics. The aftermath made it clear just how bad a mistake it was. The following councils tried to clean up the mess, but resulted in alienating parts of the Church, and possibly weakening it enough that they were unable to resist Muslim incursions.
That's informative. Thanks.
It seems rather spurious that some would claim that the council decisions were made by Jesus Christ, led by the Holy Spirit and infallible. Especially when, as you say, there was much disagreement and division over it. (not a quote)
 
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Shrewd Manager

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3. Individuals who believe & why.

It's disarmingly simple and compelling in faith and reason. That's the hallmark of truth, the sword of the gospel, straight up scriptural axiom. Here 'tis:

God created the world. Jesus came to save the world.

That's it. What more is required? The rest is just mechanics. Or rather, it's the breathtaking revelation that overcomes our spirit with His and makes the lame leap for joy like a deer. How He empowers us with humility, how He regenerates us with love, what assurance we have.

God has given us His salvation, and His salvation is His word, and His word is His covenant and, well, let's just say He's a safe pair of hands, through all adversity, in the face of the seemingly impossible - man and his choices. With God, nothing is impossible!

Look here all you damnationists: His ways are higher than our ways. So cry out to Him today, don't hold back and He sure won't.
 
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...Look here all you damnationists: His ways are higher than our ways. ...
That's good.
It seems the Damnationists claim that God's ways are LOWER than ours.
 
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