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Featured The Restitution Of All Things

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Please read on. Everything happens in order. First Christ, then his followers, then the powers are destroyed, then all things are in subjection to Christ, then finally God is all in all. The people who aren't Christ's followers are part of all things being subjected to Christ, so they're on the list. (The other option is that those who aren't Christ's followers aren't resurrected, but are permanently dead. I guess it's possible that Paul intends that, but it kind of contradicts all being made alive in Christ.)

    Remember that Paul didn't consider evil something that people just happened to do. He saw it as a supernatural power. (Eph 6:10-12) People who sin are slaves to sin. (Rom 6:16-20) Destroying the powers frees their slaves. Of course 1 Cor 15 isn't the whole picture. We still have Rom 2:6-11. People are responsible for their actions, and those who do evil will be punished. Paul speaks of wrath, etc. But for Paul the primary punishment is death. (Rom 2:12, 6:16) I think in the end the powers that held them as slaves, and even death to which they became subject, will be destroyed and they will become subjects of Christ. It's the defeat of the powers, including death, and their former slaves becoming Christ's subjects that you see in 1 Cor 15:24-28.

    A lot of people seem to think that becoming Christ's subjects means that Christ is going to torment then forever. But that's contrary to the whole vision. They were being punished by being slaves of the powers and of death. Christ defeats those powers. Paul never had in mind that having defeated the powers and death he would take over their role as oppressors!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019 at 6:34 AM
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  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    This bit about "under the earth" in Phil.2:10-11 is mighty interesting as well. See below.

    Before Christ was resurrected, he spent time in "the heart of the earth", even though he was laid in an above ground tomb. (Matt.12:40 below)
    The Apostle Peter says he "made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits". (1Peter3:19 below)
    The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "took many captives" after he "descended to the lower, earthly regions". (Eph.4:8-10 below)

    Philippians 2:10-11
    that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    Matthew 12:40
    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    1 Peter 3:19-20
    After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. ...

    Ephesians 4:8-10
    This is why it says:
    “When he ascended on high,
    he took many captives
    and gave gifts to his people.”
    9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
     
  3. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    One reason for the controversy is that Paul's full vision isn't shown very many places, and understanding it requires you to understand a worldview that's different from ours. That's why Paul refers to it as a "mystery" in Rom 11:25-32 and 1 Cor 15:51.

    I will say that I'm not entirely sure that the Gospels shared this vision. I'm still unclear on that.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I see the Apostle as revealing mysteries in Rom 11:25-32 and 1 Cor 15:51.
     
  5. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades shall Not Prevail Against It.
    Matthew 16:18


    The Same Holy Spirit that moved and worked through Holy Men to Write the Bible Also moved and worked through The Bishops at The Ecumenical Councils to Finalize and Affirm Orthodox Christian Doctrine and Defeat Heresy.


    .
     
  6. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Believe what you will. Jesus will build HIS church despite fallible men who have led the church astray.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    The church is built on Jesus Christ, not on Peter.
    The rock it was built on was the Holy Spirit that revealed to Peter who Christ was.

    1 Corinthians 3:11
    For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
     
  8. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wasn't pointing to Peter when I quoted that verse. My focus of the verse is where The Lord says that He Will Build His Church and that the gates of Hades will Not prevail against it.

    This Church that He Built had Bishops and Councils who were directed by The Holy Spirit and the gates of Hell has still not prevailed against it.


    .
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    There's a topic.
    It's been on the back burner of my mind for a while.

    Preston Eby makes a point about those in Matthew twenty-five that were invited into the kingdom based on having helped those in the body of Christ. Here's the quote.

    "There are many precious and important truths contained in this parable, but we must restrain ourselves from pursuing them at this time in order to deal briefly with two points. First, it is important to note that this separation of the sheep from the goats was brought about, not on the basis of whether one had accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, but solely on the basis of WORKS. Everything depended entirely upon what the sheep or goats had DONE or had NOT DONE. There was nothing of faith or a spiritual experience connected with this separation. The sheep were set on God's right hand because of the fact that they had done something - given meat and drink to the LORD'S BRETHREN, clothed them, visited them, and comforted them. All these things the Lord said they had DONE TO HIM. But the sheep confessed that they had never seen Him, so how could they have done these things to the Lord?" - Preston Eby, The Savior of the World, Eternity, "AION" - AN AGE (source below)

    I think there are other examples of this in the gospels that have been bothersome. They seem to contradict salvation by grace and rather use works as the basis. I am wondering if these work into the Universalism view somehow. Which would bring the gospels into Universalism.

    Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019 at 7:01 PM
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Everything about this claim is wrong. Even the prevailing part.

    The Church (capital C) is not the same as the church (the body of Christ).
    Because the body of Christ is not contained within the institutions of humankind.
    That's not the kind of church he was building.

    In short, you don't own the church.
     
  11. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In Short, Jesus Built A Church and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it and The Canons and Decrees of The Ecumenical Councils of The Church that He built are Infallible.


    .
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Adding more egg whites and beating harder just makes a bigger foam. No substance.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What has happened in your Church (capital C) in the last year that can only be attributed to the work of the Holy Spirit? (not the work of humans) Or is the work of the Spirit only a historic claim?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019 at 7:33 PM
  14. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophesy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills"
    1 Corinthians 12:8-11

    The Holy Spirit and His Varieties of Gifts - Introduction to Orthodoxy Articles - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America


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  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Iranaeus did not teach universalism Adversus Haereses a few chapters later.

    For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.

    St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 28
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Well, that's a nice web page. But I'm pretty sure it was created by humans, not the Holy Spirit.

    Good to see that you believe in spiritual gifts. Have you had the baptism with the Holy Spirit? Do you speak in tongues or prophesy? Do you pray for the sick and see healings?
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear BNR: It is always a delight seeing you again. Do you know how many of the four (4) Theological schools of the earliest ages of the Church advocated>>>

    1. Eternal torture (ECT)?

    2. Conditional immortality?

    3. Universal reconciliation?

    Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

    “Before the truth sets you free, it tends to make you miserable.” -Richard Rohr-
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  19. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I don’t know about that your source claimed that Irenaeus supported universalism and I just showed that that was incorrect perhaps they need to do some more research. How many other mistakes did they make?
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear BNR: You most certainly do not know about "that". My suggestion to you, take some time and acquaint your thinking with a remarkable treatise by Dr. Hanson.

    God is the God of ta panta!
     
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