Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?

[BNR32FAN]

Simple straightforward question. Does sinful man (all of us) deserve the justice of God?

Absolutely, we certainly do not deserve grace.

 

[Halbhh]

Why not?

Referring to the "justice" of 1 john 1:9: to be forgiven and cleansed if we confess -- for that justice, and using the term "deserve" to be defined as "to earn, and have owed to one by virtue of the value inherent in their good or service", then I'd say in human terms we most all would agree we cannot earn such amazing grace, but it's a 'free gift' -- something we don't 'deserve'.

I hope I haven't at this point made a mishmash of your OP question by using the "justice" in 1 John 1:9 instead of a punitive side of "justice" as you might have meant exclusively (guessing). On the other hand for punitive justice done to the unrepentant, I also think we are incompetent to assess that too.

Interesting question to you: what do you think on these things?

 

[Hammster]

Referring to the "justice" of 1 john 1:9: to be forgiven and cleansed if we confess -- for that justice, and using the term "deserve" to be defined as "to earn, and have owed to one by virtue of the value inherent in their good or service", then I'd say in human terms we most all would agree we cannot earn such amazing grace, but it's a 'free gift' -- something we don't 'deserve'.

I hope I haven't at this point made a mishmash of your OP question by using the "justice" in 1 John 1:9 instead of a punitive side of "justice" as you might have meant exclusively (guessing). On the other hand for punitive justice done to the unrepentant, I also think we are incompetent to assess that too.

Interesting question to you: what do you think on these things?

I didn’t ask if we deserve grace.

 

[Halbhh]

I didn’t ask if we deserve grace.

But I did ask you what you think.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Is it unjust, then, that the wages of sin is death?

I can't explain myself any better.

The entire N.T. and the story of salvation is based on the justice of God.

His justice includes the fact that he KNEW what was going to happen in the Garden.

IF God is just, and He knew what was going to happen in the Garden,,,and He still created us and allowed it to happen,,,,

He would be UNJUST not to give us an opportunity to then save ourselves.

If He did NOT give us an opportunity to freely choose to believe in Him and save ourselves,,,my answer has to be that NO...we do not deserve to be punished for doing what God KNEW we were going to do...

If He created us knowing all this...WHY would He have created us?

A yes answer would be unjust for an omniscient God.

For a just God,,,the answer has to be No.

That responds to the O.P.
But, of course, God DID give us a way out....

But I don't want to derail...

 

[Hammster]

But I did ask you what you think.

I’d rather stick with the OP, if that’s okay.

 

[Halbhh]

I’d rather stick with the OP, if that’s okay.

I'm to read only punitive 'Justice' alone, and not the other kind. Ok.

As above then, in post #22, on that.

 

[Hammster]

I can't explain myself any better.

The entire N.T. and the story of salvation is based on the justice of God.

His justice includes the fact that he KNEW what was going to happen in the Garden.

IF God is just, and He knew what was going to happen in the Garden,,,and He still created us and allowed it to happen,,,,

He would be UNJUST not to give us an opportunity to then save ourselves.

If He did NOT give us an opportunity to freely choose to believe in Him and save ourselves,,,my answer has to be that NO...we do not deserve to be punished for doing what God KNEW we were going to do...

If He created us knowing all this...WHY would He have created us?

A yes answer would be unjust for an omniscient God.

For a just God,,,the answer has to be No.

That responds to the O.P.
But, of course, God DID give us a way out....

But I don't want to derail...

Okay.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I didn’t ask if we deserve grace.

I'd say we deserve grace....
What if we could create turtles.
I create turtles that limp.
Is it just for me to punish them because they limp?

 

[Hammster]

I'd say we deserve grace....
What if we could create turtles.
I create turtles that limp.
Is it just for me to punish them because they limp?

If you deserve it, it isn’t grace.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you deserve it, it isn’t grace.

If I made them,
and they limp,
they DESERVE for me to throw their food very close to them so they don't have to travel far to get it.

They DESERVE this because I'M the one that caused them to limp.

 

[Halbhh]

If you deserve it, it isn’t grace.

It's a theme today:

Are you a good person?

 

[Hammster]

If I made them,
and they limp,
they DESERVE for me to throw their food very close to them so they don't have to travel far to get it.

They DESERVE this because I'M the one that caused them to limp.

Again, it’s not grace if it’s deserved. You cannot just change definitions of words.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Simple straightforward question. Does sinful man (all of us) deserve the justice of God?

Yes.

All mankind receives His Justice. Everyone is doomed to die for their sin.

The whole world is under a death penalty.

Oh, by the way, a few escape. (I think you know how).

 

[Grip Docility]

Simple straightforward question. Does sinful man (all of us) deserve the justice of God?

Yes

But God... Who is Three-One (Tri-Une)(Une/Modal)(TriCot/3 of the same substance that are Singular in Work, Deed and Purpose) clearly didn’t define Justice as man does.

Zechariah 7:9

 

[GodsGrace101]

Again, it’s not grace if it’s deserved. You cannot just change definitions of words.

OK. I agree.
Grace is undeserved love and favors from God.

So, let's say God gives mankind His grace freely because He knows we need it because of the responsibility He has for having made us to love Him freely, thus with free will, but He knew we'd listen to the serpent so since He desires all men to be saved, He bestows this love and grace freely to all to give us an opportunity to be saved.

 

[His student]

Simple straightforward question. Does sinful man (all of us) deserve the justice of God?

Sometimes, when I consider the harshness of that justice - it seems that neither Adam nor many of us deserve what God has in store for those who do not believe on Christ.

In the case of some, like serial killers or Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot and such - it seems fairly appropriate. But not for my Dad who failed to believe and be saved (so far as I know).

But I believe that when I see things without looking through this clouded glass I'll agree with it even if I don't like it much now.

In the mean time - I believe what He says about justice and I'm sure as heck glad I've been saved and will never come under that kind of wrath.

He loved me so much that He died for me. I guess I can trust Him to deal fairly and justly with everyone in the end.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes.

All mankind receives His Justice. Everyone is doomed to die for their sin.

The whole world is under a death penalty.

Oh, by the way, a few escape. (I think you know how).

Why is the whole world under a death penalty?

 

[Hammster]

OK. I agree.
Grace is undeserved love and favors from God.

So, let's say God gives mankind His grace freely because He knows we need it because of the responsibility He has for having made us to love Him freely, thus with free will, but He knew we'd listen to the serpent so since He desires all men to be saved, He bestows this love and grace freely to all to give us an opportunity to be saved.

Okay. Do those who reject the opportunity deserve justice or mercy?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Okay. Do those who reject the opportunity deserve justice or mercy?

Justice.