Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?

[TheSeabass]

Are we made righteous by faith or repentance?

Faith includes repentance.....for faith is dead if it does not include it.

Again, one will perish unless/until he repents.

 

[Hammster]

Faith includes repentance.....for faith is dead if it does not include it.

Again, one will perish unless/until he repents.

So then we logically need to believe first, and the result of that is repentance.

 

[TheSeabass]

So then we logically need to believe first, and the result of that is repentance.

Yes. For why would an unbeliever repent of his sins when he thinks he has no sins nor believes in heaven or hell nor that there is a God in heaven?

If one has a NT belief, then that belief will make him realize he is lost in his sins and needs to then repent of those sins.

If one was living in adultery and was one day taught the NT gospel and believed it, then he would realized his lost state due to his sins. He must repent of his sins and come out of that adulterous state for he cannot remain in it and still be saved. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes. For why would an unbeliever repent of his sins when he thinks he has no sins nor believes in heaven or hell nor that there is a God in heaven?

If one has a NT belief, then that belief will make him realize he is lost in his sins and needs to then repent of those sins.

If one was living in adultery and was one day taught the NT gospel and believed it, then he would realized his lost state due to his sins. He must repent of his sins and come out of that adulterous state for he cannot remain in it and still be saved. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Initially I was following you... but you’ve redefined biblical repentance, as biblical repentance is a change of mind.

 

[TheSeabass]

Initially I was following you... but you’ve redefined biblical repentance, as biblical repentance is a change of mind.

Yes, a change of mind. A change of mind does lead to a change of action.

One may think in his mind nothing is wrong with adultery, yet change his mind upon hearing the gospel learning that adultery is wrong. So he must also change his action/living and get out of the adulterous state. Change of action from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, a change of mind. A change of mind does lead to a change of action.

One may think in his mind nothing is wrong with adultery, yet change his mind upon hearing the gospel learning that adultery is wrong. So he must also change his action/living and get out of the adulterous state. Change of action from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness.

Okay... lets get this aired out. What is your opinion of Paul's "struggle" in Romans 7.

Do you believe that he's portraying real struggle, or something fake?

 

[Grip Docility]

So then we logically need to believe first, and the result of that is repentance.

From my perspective... the "Believe" as in "Repent" is the "Change of mind" that begins the process of ... and Hammster... I may be adjusting my usual terminology here to use words you typically use... the Regeneration process.

In other words... we give our Widows Mite. That Widows Mite is all we have and is our response to hearing the gospel. We acknowledge that sinful us, especially in light of Jesus' "Amplification of the Law" in the Beatitudes... is HOPELESS without Jesus.

That Repent/Believe (Change of mind) then allows the Father to Draw us into True (Regenerative) belief.

I know you don't agree with this, but I wanted to clarify my stance.

 

[Grip Docility]

From my perspective... the "Believe" as in "Repent" is the "Change of mind" that begins the process of ... and Hammster... I may be adjusting my usual terminology here to use words you typically use... the Regeneration process.

In other words... we give our Widows Mite. That Widows Mite is all we have and is our response to hearing the gospel. We acknowledge that sinful us, especially in light of Jesus' "Amplification of the Law" in the Beatitudes... is HOPELESS without Jesus.

That Repent/Believe (Change of mind) then allows the Father to Draw us into True (Regenerative) belief.

I know you don't agree with this, but I wanted to clarify my stance.

Wait! you liked this????? @Hammster... I can't take this! You're going to make my head explode!

 

[TheSeabass]

Okay... lets get this aired out. What is your opinion of Paul's "struggle" in Romans 7.

Do you believe that he's portraying real struggle, or something fake?

In Romans 7, Paul is showing that justification by faith does not allow one to live in sin, not serve sin. He shows in the latter part of Rom 7 that faith frees one from the type of law, as the law of Moses, that required perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified.

So the struggle Paul is talking about was the struggle he (and other Jews) had in living under the law of Moses that required perfect, flawless law keeping. Saul, as a Jew, knew the law, loved the law and did all he could to keep it but met with the struggle and frustration of sinning and breaking the OT law. Paul then contrasts that struggle he had under the OT law that condmened with "now" being a Christian in Christ where there is no condemnation Romans 8:1

 

[Hammster]

Wait! you liked this????? @Hammster... I can't take this! You're going to make my head explode!

I liked the attitude.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm going to talk about dogs for a moment. We know dogs--canis familiaris--are related to other canines such wolves and foxes.

But interestingly, if you take one of those other species of canine and breed it for any of the specific characteristics of dogs--such as tolerance of humans--what you get in very short order is...a dog. They tried to breed foxes to be tolerant of humans, and what they got was not a tolerant fox, they literally got a dog. All of the domesticated dog characteristics come from breeding for any one of them. "Dog" is a package.

"Christian" is a package. There's no utility to arguing about what comes first in that package. Repentance, faith, indwelling of the Spirit, yada, yada, yada.

It's all a package. They're all in there. As far as we know, maybe the order differs for everyone, the Holy Spirit working the process as necessary for each situation.

But when it gets to us, it's a package.

 

[Grip Docility]

I liked the attitude.

Unfortunately... after all of our fair back and forth over time... I'm afraid I've found part of me may actually be appreciating your attitude as well.

I've been "praying" to be able to love "Huge air quote gesture" you people "Huge air quote gesture" <- Racist reference to Calvinist's.... and suddenly, I'm fearing that God has heard my prayers.

Don't give up on me messing this up. I'm great at messing up!

 

[Grip Docility]

In Romans 7, Paul is showing that justification by faith does not allow one to live in sin, not serve sin. He shows in the latter part of Rom 7 that faith frees one from the type of law, as the law of Moses, that required perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified.

So the struggle Paul is talking about was the struggle he (and other Jews) had in living under the law of Moses that required perfect, flawless law keeping. Saul, as a Jew, knew the law, loved the law and did all he could to keep it but met with the struggle and frustration of sinning and breaking the OT law. Paul then contrasts that struggle he had under the OT law that condemned with "now" being a Christian in Christ where there is no condemnation Romans 8:1

I see you acknowledging this as real struggle. I can be at peace and follow your logic here.