LDS Reformed Egyptian?

[BigDaddy4]

Like I say they are pictures of the existence of 2 groups as you asked for.

So you are claiming these are pictures of the Lamanites and Nephites?

So google: 'images of pre-columbian murals in Mesoamerica'.

Also google: 'San Bartolo murals' that show 2 colors of people.

Like I said, I'm not going to do your work for you. Neither of these searches supports your claim, if that is your claim.

Face it, try as you like, but you have no evidence of the peoples of the Book of Mormon ever existing.

 

[dzheremi]

I like how even though I can't see Peter's posts anymore, I can still reconstruct what he must be arguing from everyone's replies. These are great! Keep 'em coming, everybody.

Now let me guess: Mesoamerican murals are evidence of this or that BOM people? Hahaha.

You'd think they'd know that, then, since the peoples who made those murals (the various Mayans) still exist in that same territory today. True, it was a Mormon lawyer, Thomas Stuart Ferguson, who essentially revolutionized archaeology in Mexico in his search to prove the BOM to be historically-based, but if you read his story to the end (which I highly suggest you do whether you're Mormon or not, because it's fascinating and maybe even a bit inspiring, in the sense of "untrained guy goes on to do something amazing outside of his field just because he has this personal interest", proving that you don't need to be some egghead to make a real positive impact on the scientific world, provided you are willing to go where the science takes you; to that end, here is Science Magazine's take on his life and work), it does not end well for his faith in Mormonism and the historicity of the BOM.

 

[Peter1000]

So you are claiming these are pictures of the Lamanites and Nephites?

Like I said, I'm not going to do your work for you. Neither of these searches supports your claim, if that is your claim.

Face it, try as you like, but you have no evidence of the peoples of the Book of Mormon ever existing.

I was not claiming that these pictures prove that peoples of the BOM ever existed. It was to prove that in Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica there was 2 groups of people. (which is what you originally asked me to prove.) A white skinned people and a darker skinned people. 2 groups I am sure had cultural differences going back to BOM times which was only a few hundred years earlier than when these murals were painted.

 

[Peter1000]

I like how even though I can't see Peter's posts anymore, I can still reconstruct what he must be arguing from everyone's replies. These are great! Keep 'em coming, everybody.

Now let me guess: Mesoamerican murals are evidence of this or that BOM people? Hahaha.

You'd think they'd know that, then, since the peoples who made those murals (the various Mayans) still exist in that same territory today. True, it was a Mormon lawyer, Thomas Stuart Ferguson, who essentially revolutionized archaeology in Mexico in his search to prove the BOM to be historically-based, but if you read his story to the end (which I highly suggest you do whether you're Mormon or not, because it's fascinating and maybe even a bit inspiring, in the sense of "untrained guy goes on to do something amazing outside of his field just because he has this personal interest", proving that you don't need to be some egghead to make a real positive impact on the scientific world, provided you are willing to go where the science takes you; to that end, here is Science Magazine's take on his life and work), it does not end well for his faith in Mormonism and the historicity of the BOM.

How is it that you could possibly say that a Mormon attorney with only a passion for archaeology, but not professional degrees could revolutionize archaeology in Mexico?

That is quite an admission. Thank you for that. Although he did not find all that he was looking for, he was way early in the archaeology process in that part of Mexico and Guatamala and a lot has happened since then.

But it is interesting that if Thomas had just read his own book and realized that the Egyptian papyrus that was found in Chicago was only 1/20 of the entire JS Abraham scroll that had existed, he would not have lost his faith in JS. But alas, he did, but hundreds of Mormon archaeologists have worked and studied and worked on sites in Mesoamerica, as much as Ferguson did and still have strong and enduring testimonies of JS and the BOM and the Book of Abraham.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I was not claiming that these pictures prove that peoples of the BOM ever existed. It was to prove that in Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica there was 2 groups of people. (which is what you originally asked me to prove.) A white skinned people and a darker skinned people. 2 groups I am sure had cultural differences going back to BOM times which was only a few hundred years earlier than when these murals were painted.

Um no, that's not what I asked you to prove. That's you moving the goal posts because you can't prove your assertion. Let's recap:

If you are calling JS prejudiced, you will have to call God prejudiced, because it was God that separated the 2 groups around 600bc.

No such 2 groups.

Says you. I say there were 2 groups. So now where do we go from here?

Provide evidence of said 2 groups actually existing.

The "2 groups" are in the context of the BoM people (see the first quote of yours above). Unless you are relating these Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica pictures to the BoM people, you have nothing to support your assertion that God "separated the 2 groups around 600bc."

Care to try again?

 

[BigDaddy4]

I like how even though I can't see Peter's posts anymore, I can still reconstruct what he must be arguing from everyone's replies. These are great! Keep 'em coming, everybody.

Now let me guess: Mesoamerican murals are evidence of this or that BOM people? Hahaha.

Yes, he's trying hard to re-write history in the lds favor, much like he's done with you and your church history discussions before you put him on ignore. Some mural has two different colored people depicted so that must mean the Nephites and Lamanites existed, even though they supposedly wiped each other out hundreds of years earlier.

 

[Peter1000]

Um no, that's not what I asked you to prove. That's you moving the goal posts because you can't prove your assertion. Let's recap:








The "2 groups" are in the context of the BoM people (see the first quote of yours above). Unless you are relating these Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica pictures to the BoM people, you have nothing to support your assertion that God "separated the 2 groups around 600bc."

Care to try again?

Were you aware that there was white and darker people documented as living together as early as 600ad and at least pre-Columbian?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Were you aware that there was white and darker people documented as living together as early as 600ad and at least pre-Columbian?

Are you aware that you are avoiding the question of the existence of the Nephites and Lamanites?

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, he's trying hard to re-write history in the lds favor, much like he's done with you and your church history discussions before you put him on ignore. Some mural has two different colored people depicted so that must mean the Nephites and Lamanites existed, even though they supposedly wiped each other out hundreds of years earlier.

Hahahahaha.

I don't use "LOL" because I don't want to seem dishonest if I really just smiled rather than laughing out loud, but that just did it. Time-travelling zombie Nephites, man.

BOM apologetics, if not the BOM itself, would make a great version of one of those big dumb action/suspense/mystery movies, like "National Treasure" or "The Da Vinci Code" or something. "And then, the Nephites and Lamanites battled each other on the Hill Cumorah, and their thousands of bodies and all of their horses and weapons and armor magically disappeared! OOoOOOooOooo" (*insert Inception horn*)

 

[Peter1000]

Are you aware that you are avoiding the question of the existence of the Nephites and Lamanites?

No, I answered your question, that 2 different kinds of groups actually existed many centuries before Columbus. I believe they were Lamanites and Nephites. You do not. Your choice, but there surely was white skinned people, and darker skinned people in Mesoamerica before Columbus just as the BOM says.

If you did not have the BOM you would never had thought that there were white skinned people in Mesoamerica before Columbus. So you learned something today.

 

[Peter1000]

Hahahahaha.

I don't use "LOL" because I don't want to seem dishonest if I really just smiled rather than laughing out loud, but that just did it. Time-travelling zombie Nephites, man.

BOM apologetics, if not the BOM itself, would make a great version of one of those big dumb action/suspense/mystery movies, like "National Treasure" or "The Da Vinci Code" or something. "And then, the Nephites and Lamanites battled each other on the Hill Cumorah, and their thousands of bodies and all of their horses and weapons and armor magically disappeared! OOoOOOooOooo" (*insert Inception horn*)

How many years would it take for nature to completely destroy a battle ground in a rather hot, tropical setting in southern Mexico? The Cumorah battle took place about 400ad. Cortez arrived about 1520ad.
Do you think 1100 years would do it? I think so.

 

[mmksparbud]

Both pictures are pre-Columbian, before the white man was supposed to be in Mesoamerica.
Dark skinned and light skinned men. 2 groups, 2 cultures.
View attachment 255879

View attachment 255880

The BOM does say that the white skinned Nephites, eventually fell to the darker skinned Lamanites and those that survived became slaves and sacrifices.

Where did you get these pictures from??

 

[mmksparbud]

Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty

Did the Vikings visit Pre-Columbian Mexico? The depiction of white people on Chichen Itza murals in the Temple of the Warriors probably represent Vikings - the major European navigators around the time this temple was built. This suggests the tradition of the “White Lords” who had visited Mexico before the Spanish were the Vikings.

Norse Sagas Discussing Voyages that May Have Landed in Mexico
Hans Ebeling published the book ‘ Die Reise in die Vergangenheit III. Die Europäer gewinnen den Erdball. Geschichte der Neuzeit bis’ , in 1789. In his text, Ebeling talked about how Moctezuma II welcomed Hernán Cortés as Quetzalcoatl. Guðrún Guðmundsdóttir and Björn Thorsteinsson translated Ebeling’s book into Icelandic. They discussed the Eyrbggia saga in the epilogue. This saga mentions two possible Vikings who may have sailed to the Yucatan region of Mexico - Gudleif Gudlaugson (c.1025 AD) and Björn Breiðvíkingakappi (c.965).

Guðmundsdóttir and Thorsteinsson claim that the Eyrbyggja saga describes how Björn Breiðvíkingakappi (Björn the champion of the Broadwickers) sailed around Ireland and landed in Mexico.
There are also three traditions of the Norse Sagas that mention that in 965 or 986 Ari Marson set sail from Ireland in an attempt to reach Greenland. The story has it that Marson’s ship ran into rough seas and a storm threw him off course. Within six days he had reached Mexico instead. The Eyrbggia saga and the voyage of Ari Marson may explain how the first white people got to the Yucatan.
Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty

 

[BigDaddy4]

No, I answered your question, that 2 different kinds of groups actually existed many centuries before Columbus. I believe they were Lamanites and Nephites. You do not. Your choice, but there surely was white skinned people, and darker skinned people in Mesoamerica before Columbus just as the BOM says.

If you did not have the BOM you would never had thought that there were white skinned people in Mesoamerica before Columbus. So you learned something today.

No, you answered your question that you made up after you moved the goal posts. I specifically asked for evidence that the Lamanites and Nephites actually existed. You can't provide that so you're desperate to try and connect anything that looks close.

You actually said this:

I was not claiming that these pictures prove that peoples of the BOM ever existed.

But now you are claiming the pictures ARE evidence? Sorry, this ride is getting dizzy from all the spinning you're doing.

Oh, and by the way, are you now claiming that the BoM civilizations were definitively in Mesoamerica and not upstate New York? Has the lds church made an official declaration that the Hill Cumorah is in Mesoamerica? I must have missed that one.

Sorry, I did not learn anything new today regarding this. Same old, same old... lots of talk, spinning, and no evidence for the BoM.

 

[Peter1000]

No, you answered your question that you made up after you moved the goal posts. I specifically asked for evidence that the Lamanites and Nephites actually existed. You can't provide that so you're desperate to try and connect anything that looks close.

The closest I can come to showing you evidence of BOM people is showing you pictures of white and dark people that existed before Columbus. The BOM specifically says that there were 2 groups of people, a white skinned people and a dark skinned people. These pictures present evidence that white skinned people existed before Columbus.
I can only say I believe they present evidence of Nephite existence (white skinned people) and Lamanite existence (dark skinned people).
You can believe it or not. Just tell me you don't believe it and then we can stop the merrygoround. You will not believe any evidence I show you so let's just stop asking for evidence.

Sorry, I did not learn anything new today regarding this. Same old, same old... lots of talk, spinning, and no evidence for the BoM.

Tell me the truth, before you read parts of the BOM, did you know there was white skinned people in Mesoamerica before Columbus?

And yes, there are 2 camps in the Church of Jesus Christ. 1 camp says that the BOM story started in N. America and that many of the Nephites and Lamanites went north and south from N. America.

The other camp says that the story took place in the Mesoamerica area and many of the Nephites and Lamanites went north and south from Mesoamerica.

Thje leaders of the church have not been told the exact place that the story took place. So they are not willing to make a statement about where the BOM took place, only that it occured in the Americas.

 

[mmksparbud]

The closest I can come to showing you evidence of BOM people is showing you pictures of white and dark people that existed before Columbus. The BOM specifically says that there were 2 groups of people, a white skinned people and a dark skinned people. These pictures present evidence that white skinned people existed before Columbus.
I can only say I believe they present evidence of Nephite existence (white skinned people) and Lamanite existence (dark skinned people).
You can believe it or not. Just tell me you don't believe it and then we can stop the merrygoround. You will not believe any evidence I show you so let's just stop asking for evidence.



Tell me the truth, before you read parts of the BOM, did you know there was white skinned people in Mesoamerica before Columbus?

And yes, there are 2 camps in the Church of Jesus Christ. 1 camp says that the BOM story started in N. America and that many of the Nephites and Lamanites went north and south from N. America.

The other camp says that the story took place in the Mesoamerica area and many of the Nephites and Lamanites went north and south from Mesoamerica.

Thje leaders of the church have not been told the exact place that the story took place. So they are not willing to make a statement about where the BOM took place, only that it occured in the Americas.

Obviously you didn't see post #93---The picture is described in that link---the whites were Vikings! Not Jews!

 

[Peter1000]

Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty

Did the Vikings visit Pre-Columbian Mexico? The depiction of white people on Chichen Itza murals in the Temple of the Warriors probably represent Vikings - the major European navigators around the time this temple was built. This suggests the tradition of the “White Lords” who had visited Mexico before the Spanish were the Vikings.

Norse Sagas Discussing Voyages that May Have Landed in Mexico
Hans Ebeling published the book ‘ Die Reise in die Vergangenheit III. Die Europäer gewinnen den Erdball. Geschichte der Neuzeit bis’ , in 1789. In his text, Ebeling talked about how Moctezuma II welcomed Hernán Cortés as Quetzalcoatl. Guðrún Guðmundsdóttir and Björn Thorsteinsson translated Ebeling’s book into Icelandic. They discussed the Eyrbggia saga in the epilogue. This saga mentions two possible Vikings who may have sailed to the Yucatan region of Mexico - Gudleif Gudlaugson (c.1025 AD) and Björn Breiðvíkingakappi (c.965).

Guðmundsdóttir and Thorsteinsson claim that the Eyrbyggja saga describes how Björn Breiðvíkingakappi (Björn the champion of the Broadwickers) sailed around Ireland and landed in Mexico.
There are also three traditions of the Norse Sagas that mention that in 965 or 986 Ari Marson set sail from Ireland in an attempt to reach Greenland. The story has it that Marson’s ship ran into rough seas and a storm threw him off course. Within six days he had reached Mexico instead. The Eyrbggia saga and the voyage of Ari Marson may explain how the first white people got to the Yucatan.
Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty

Yes, this is one explanation for white men before Columbus, but there is no evidence that the Vikings came this far south. We believe these pictures are of Lamanites having dominion over the Nephites after the battle of Cumorah and before Cortez arrived in 1520ad.

 

[mmksparbud]

From the same link in post #93

Connecting the Dots
In summary, it would appear that the character named Gavite in the Dance of the Giants represents the Spanish. The blacks defeated by Gavite were the Aztecs, who were identified by the Maya and Spanish as black and were represented in the codices as a horrible people who mistreated the other local tribes.

The whites who landed at Chichen Itza were Vikings. The Vikings were well-known navigators that sailed to many nations in Europe, including Great Britain. They may have been sailing in the Atlantic and were mislaid by a storm until they reached Mexico.

As Dennis Tedlock notes in Popol Vuh: The Mayan Book of the Dawn of Life : “They didn’t know where they were going. They did this for a long time, when they were there in the grasslands: the black people, the white people , people of many faces, people of many languages, uncertain there at the edge of the sky” (pp.149-150). This mention of whites and blacks in the Popol Vuh supports the diverse populations depicted in the Chichen Itza murals.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, this is one explanation for white men before Columbus, but there is no evidence that the Vikings came this far south. We believe these pictures are of Lamanites having dominion over the Nephites after the battle of Cumorah and before Cortez arrived in 1520ad.

There is certainly better evidense of it than of any Lamanites. I told you---my ancestors are Germans who went to Honduras.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, this is one explanation for white men before Columbus, but there is no evidence that the Vikings came this far south. We believe these pictures are of Lamanites having dominion over the Nephites after the battle of Cumorah and before Cortez arrived in 1520ad.

You also have to take into account that the compass directions were depicted by color---West was black, white was north, east is red, south is yellow, and blue/green is Center.
In other words---the colors depicted may not be skin color at all, but the regions where the people were from.