5 Solas

[zippy2006]

It doesn't just refer to the minister. It's how infant baptism can be said to be salvific grace and yet be administered on one that cannot exercise faith. It's how it is possible to validly receive a Sacrament when in mortal sin. Again, I'm talking about validity, not the reception of grace.

No, ex opere operato has nothing to do with state of the subject receiving a sacrament. In an infant baptism faith is necessary, but precisely the faith of the parents and godparents who stand in for the child and also promise to raise the child in the faith. Baptism washes away all sin, including and especially mortal sin. Marriage is not invalidated by the state of sin.

You are simply misunderstanding ex opere operato. Regardless of any of this, my two references above should be more than sufficient to show that baptism requires faith.

For Catholics faith is a necessary condition for baptism, but the baptism itself actually does something that the faith alone cannot do.

 

[Athanasius377]

Yes. It is a very serious danger.



A baptist who just begins to study church history will be drawn toward Rome, but a deeper and more comprehensive study of history, Scripture, and theology ought to make someone flee from Rome. So I'm all for continued study. I fear that Mary will not study enough.

I could not agree more. The problem with Rome isn’t that she is ancient. This is most certainly true. Rather, she is not ancient enough. To the point where even her own historians are often at odds with her apologists.

 

[GingerBeer]

Ok, so you're not Catholic and you're not a Protestant. Let me guess... Assyrian Church of the East?

No, not that either

 

[zippy2006]

I could not agree more. The problem with Rome isn’t that she is ancient. This is most certainly true. Rather, she is not ancient enough. To the point where even her own historians are often at odds with her apologists.

Rome isn't ancient enough; Rome is more ancient than Lutheranism; therefore...

The fun thing about watching Meg is that she is logically astute, theologically informed, and is good at spotting sophistry. Did you catch the post where her inquiries led Tree of Life to say that regeneration is represented, sealed, and applied through baptism, and yet baptism does not effect regeneration? Classic.

 

[FireDragon76]

Did you catch the post where her inquiries led Tree of Life to say that regeneration is represented, sealed, and applied through baptism, and yet baptism does not effect regeneration? Classic.

That's not the last word in Protestantism, though.

 

[Athanasius377]

That's not the last word in Protestantism, though.

Hey @FireDragon76 I didn’t write that post. Did I miss something?

 

[zippy2006]

That's not the last word in Protestantism, though.

True.

 

[Jonaitis]

Five solas? Love them.

 

[Mary Meg]

There was no coming back for Martin Luther, only execution.

Sure he could have come back. There is always grace.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hey @FireDragon76 I didn’t write that post. Did I miss something?

I fixed it.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sure he could have come back. There is always grace.

Not in the 16th century for an outlaw of the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Mary Meg]

It doesn't just refer to the minister. It's how infant baptism can be said to be salvific grace and yet be administered on one that cannot exercise faith. It's how it is possible to validly receive a Sacrament when in mortal sin. Again, I'm talking about validity, not the reception of grace.

"Against all innovators the Council of Trent declared: "If anyone say that the sacraments of the New Law do not contain the grace which they signify, or that they do not confer grace on those who place no obstacle to the same, let him be anathema" (Sess. viii, can.vi). "If anyone say that grace is not conferred by the sacraments ex opere operato but that faith in God's promises is alone sufficient for obtaining grace, let him be anathema" (ibid., can. viii; cf. can. iv, v, vii). CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacraments

If you get baptized in mortal sin, will you have to repeat your baptism? If a couple sleeping together gets married, is their marriage invalid? The sacraments "contain the grace they signify".

It seems to me this is analogous to "irresistible grace" in Reformed theology: When God acts to do something, it is always efficacious.

 

[Mary Meg]

Not in the 16th century for an outlaw of the Holy Roman Empire.

Recantation - Wikipedia

 

[FireDragon76]

Recantation - Wikipedia

Luther believed what he said was true, and according to Catholic teaching at the time, it is neither safe nor right to recant something you believe to be true.

When Luther went to the Diet of Worms, he fully expected his condemnation and handing over to the secular authorities for execution as a likely outcome. That's why initially he stammered and spoke hesitantly, and asked for time to think it over.

 

[Tree of Life]

So Mary what's stopping you from taking the plunge?

 

[FireDragon76]

A film worth watching:

Luther (2003 film) - Wikipedia

It's very accurate to Luther's actual character. The scene of the Diet of Worms is how it happened, more or less, unlike previous portrayals that show him speaking in a very heroic fashion.

I also like how it doesn't hide the ugly stuff from the time period, including the Peasants War.

 

[zippy2006]

It seems to me this is analogous to "irresistible grace" in Reformed theology: When God acts to do something, it is always efficacious.

Sort of, but the crucial thing is to specify what exactly is meant by "baptism." This poster seems to believe that baptism on the Catholic conception is a set of things apart from faith. But for Catholics that faith is an essential part of baptism, so when we say "baptism" it includes that faith. As you said earlier, without that they just get wet, not baptized. So "baptism apart from faith" is an oxymoron.

To say "The sacrament of baptism is efficacious in itself" might look like the model of irresistible grace where something is bestowed on a purely passive recipient, but in fact the requirement of faith on the part of the recipient changes this and makes them actively receptive to the sacrament.

(Admittedly infant baptism is more complicated, but adult baptism is the paradigm case)

 

[Mary Meg]

So Mary what's stopping you from taking the plunge?

Did you even read my last post?

I love my church and my heritage, which is my family. I love a lot of things about Protestantism. And despite what you may think, I haven't sworn my allegiance to Rome or anybody else. My studies have taken me to about 400 A.D. There is more than one option from than juncture -- even remaining in Protestantism. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I might not agree with somebody else (and I have found myself in more agreement with others). You're pretty aggressive in pushing your viewpoint and pretty rigid in your stance. That's not really a good way to win me over.

 

[Tree of Life]

Did you even read my last post?

I love my church and my heritage, which is my family. I love a lot of things about Protestantism. And despite what you may think, I haven't sworn my allegiance to Rome or anybody else. My studies have taken me to about 400 A.D. There is more than one option from than juncture -- even remaining in Protestantism. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I might not agree with somebody else (and I have found myself in more agreement with others). You're pretty aggressive in pushing your viewpoint and pretty rigid in your stance. That's not really a good way to win me over.

I'm not trying to persuade you to become Reformed. I just believe that Rome is the wrong way to go. But it sounds to me like you're already there! So what are the obstacles that remain that would prevent you from converting to Roman Catholicism?

 

[Mary Meg]

I'm not trying to persuade you to become Reformed. I just believe that Rome is the wrong way to go. But it sounds to me like you're already there! So what are the obstacles that remain that would prevent you from converting to Roman Catholicism?

I'm just not there yet. And I'm not going to prejudge before I get there. What's the hurry?