Please explain if no one is predestined

[Rescued One]

For those who believe our response to be the determining factor who or what caused some to reject Christ?

Will any Arminian answer these questions?

 

[Dr. Jack]

Why do you think there is a difference? Many people hear the gospel with their physical ears, but don't understand it at all. Without the Spirit we don't belong to Christ, nor do we understand spiritual things.

According to Calvinism the following events occur in the following order:
1) Regeneration
2) Hearing the Gopel
3) Salvation

What is the difference between 1 and 3?

 

[Rescued One]

According to Calvinism the following events occur in the following order:
1) Regeneration
2) Hearing the Gopel
3) Salvation

What is the difference between 1 and 3?

Regeneration is the new birth wrought by God. He does it without my co-operation. Because I an born again by the Spirit I have faith when I hear the Gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Can you give me a link to that information?

I’d be interested as well.

 

[Rescued One]

I’d be interested as well.

Oh, I edited my post when I found this link:
Regeneration Precedes Faith

"... The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith."

I'm not sure if there is an interval between the new birth and faith.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Oh, I edited my post when I found this link:
Regeneration Precedes Faith

"... The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith."

I'm not sure if there is an interval between the new birth and faith.

10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans

There must be at least enough of an interval to hear the preaching of the Word.

So, what is the difference between regeneration and salvation?

 

[Hammster]

10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans

There must be at least enough of an interval to hear the preaching of the Word.

So, what is the difference between regeneration and salvation?

The gospel is the means that God uses. So faith (a gift) does come by hearing. The unregenerate has no faith. The regenerate have faith.

 

[Rescued One]

10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans

There must be at least enough of an interval to hear the preaching of the Word.

So, what is the difference between regeneration and salvation?

Regeneration and hearing the word could happen at the same time and probably does.

 

[Dr. Jack]

The gospel is the means that God uses. So faith (a gift) does come by hearing. The unregenerate has no faith. The regenerate have faith.

As noted in the link you provided ...
"Regeneration precedes faith"

Since Regeneration "precedes" faith; and one must have faith to be saved; what is the difference between a regenerated soul, and a saved soul.

Since regeneration "precedes" faith, and faith is required for salvation, regeneration must precede salvation.

This means regeneration and salvation cannot be one and the same.

Hence, there must be a Scriptural means of differentiating regeneration of the soul, and salvation of the soul.

What is that Scriptural difference, and what are the Scriptural references?

 

[Hammster]

As noted in the link you provided ...
"Regeneration precedes faith"

Since Regeneration "precedes" faith; and one must have faith to be saved; what is the difference between a regenerated soul, and a saved soul.

Since regeneration "precedes" faith, and faith is required for salvation, regeneration must precede salvation.

This means regeneration and salvation cannot be one and the same.

Hence, there must be a Scriptural means of differentiating regeneration of the soul, and salvation of the soul.

What is that Scriptural difference, and what are the Scriptural references?

You make salvation seem like it’s just a one time, monolithic event.

Regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification...all can be referred to as salvation. All are part of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, I edited my post when I found this link:
Regeneration Precedes Faith

"... The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith."

I'm not sure if there is an interval between the new birth and faith.

The key paragraph in Sproul's article cited above is:
"These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith."

What is stunning is that he quoted the VERY VERSE that sets up the order between regeneration and faith. Although he didn't quote it accurately.

"made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

The last red phrase is a clarification of the first red phrase. Therefore, they are synonymous.

iow, a regenerated person is a saved person. And vice versa. A saved person is a regenerated person. They occur together.

So, now we examine the order, as taught by Paul, 3 verses later.

v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Having established from v.5 that regeneration and salvation occur simultaneously, we now see when regeneration occurs, which is "through faith".

iow, faith must be present BEFORE one is regenerated.

When Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved", he was including being "made alive", from v.5.

So, both salvation and regeneration follow faith.

Sproul is incorrect.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The gospel is the means that God uses. So faith (a gift) does come by hearing.

When the word 'faith' is used as a noun, then we can consider it a gift. However, Eph 2:8 doesn't allow that understanding. The gift refers back to "are saved". That's the gift. Salvation. Eternal life, which is salvation, is described as a gift in Rom 6:23.

So when Calvinists claim that the action of believing is a gift from God, they are quite incorrect. Nowhere in Scripture is that notion taught.

The unregenerate has no faith. The regenerate have faith.

Easy. The regenerate are those who have believed and are saved. So of course they have faith. What they believe (verb) is their faith (noun).

 

[FreeGrace2]

You make salvation seem like it’s just a one time, monolithic event.

Regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification...all can be referred to as salvation. All are part of salvation.

This just dodges the real issue. What you present here involves the 3 tenses of salvation; past, present and future.

But the issue is about the order of regeneration and believing for salvation.

Can you show any verse that indicates that a person can be or is regenerated before salvation? If not, there is no reason to believe that regeneration precedes salvation.

That is simply a Calvinist construct.

 

[Hammster]

Easy. The regenerate are those who have believed and are saved. So of course they have faith. What they believe (verb) is their faith (noun).

So they have faith in faith?

 

[Hammster]

This just dodges the real issue. What you present here involves the 3 tenses of salvation; past, present and future.

But the issue is about the order of regeneration and believing for salvation.

Can you show any verse that indicates that a person can be or is regenerated before salvation? If not, there is no reason to believe that regeneration precedes salvation.

That is simply a Calvinist construct.

I’ve said this before. I’ll show you a verse that states regeneration before faith as soon as you show me a verse that explains the Trinity.

Reformed Theology isn’t so shallow that it relies on cherry-picked verses that are thrown together. It’s deep in that it examines all of scripture in context.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The regenerate are those who have believed and are saved. So of course they have faith. What they believe (verb) is their faith (noun)."

So they have faith in faith?

No. I never said that. But I can see how some might try to twist what I said into that.

All 'faith' requires an object. There is no such thing as "faith in faith". That's just putting words together that have no meaning.

I was distinguishing between the verb (action) with the noun (subject). I'm sorry I can't boil it down further to make it easier to understand.

When a person trusts, believes in Christ, that is an action toward an object, being Christ.

All that Jesus did for us is what we are believing to be true.

Do you understand the difference between an action and a noun? That's key to following this discussion. Too many people use 'faith' as a verb when they should be using it as a noun.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’ve said this before. I’ll show you a verse that states regeneration before faith as soon as you show me a verse that explains the Trinity.

Exactly.

Just as there are NO verses that explain the Trinity, there are NO verses that show that regeneration is before faith. Thanks for making my point.

And I just explained from Eph 2:5 and 8 that since "being made alive" and "being saved" are synonymous (v.5) and salvation requires faith (v.8), it is clear that regeneration follows faith.

But, you failed to engage my explanation. So you default to a irrelevant challenge about the Trinity.

Reformed Theology isn’t so shallow that it relies on cherry-picked verses that are thrown together. It’s deep in that it examines all of scripture in context.

Sure. It really IS shallow.

Calvinism cannot prove that regeneration precedes believing.
Calvinism cannot prove that man is unable to believe preior to regeneration.
Calvinism cannot prove that Christ died only for a small group of humanity.
Calvinism cannot prove that a saved person cannot apostatize.
Calvinism cannot prove that election is to salvation.
iow, Calvinism cannot prove its many claims.

 

[Hammster]

I said:
"The regenerate are those who have believed and are saved. So of course they have faith. What they believe (verb) is their faith (noun)."

No. I never said that. But I can see how some might try to twist what I said into that.

All 'faith' requires an object. There is no such thing as "faith in faith". That's just putting words together that have no meaning.

I was distinguishing between the verb (action) with the noun (subject). I'm sorry I can't boil it down further to make it easier to understand.

When a person trusts, believes in Christ, that is an action toward an object, being Christ.

All that Jesus did for us is what we are believing to be true.

Do you understand the difference between an action and a noun? That's key to following this discussion. Too many people use 'faith' as a verb when they should be using it as a noun.

You said “What they believe (verb) is their faith (noun)”

That means what they believe in (have faith in) is their faith. You made the object of faith their faith.

I just didn’t know what you meant by that.

 

[Hammster]

Just as there are NO verses that explain the Trinity, there are NO verses that show that regeneration is before faith. Thanks for making my point.

It’s only your point if you don’t believe in the Trinity. I hope that’s not the case.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

There isn't an understanding person, one with wisdom. There isn't one that seeks God. They've become estranged from God, and are now indifferent to God. All have turned away, out of the right course which God has shown. Altogether they've become worthless.