First female Muslim member of Pennsylvania House offended by GOP member's prayer before swearing-in

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I'm not saying that I do, I'm saying that I don't think it is, and my reason for thinking that is the reasoned explanations of people like the Iraqi atheist at that link, Hashim Almadani who actually come from Islamic societies (and, significantly in his case, Shi'ite Islamic societies) and talk about the roots and application of the concept.

Then I'm wrong and people like Mr. Almadani are wrong. But I'd still trust him and the Middle Eastern people I actually know (including other Iraqis) to be telling the truth, since they're mostly Christians so it's not their doctrine to attempt to hide or justify in the first place.

It is not a Christian concept so trusting ME Christians is not in question.

 

[section9+1]

It's good that she's offended. She's supposed to be offended. All enemies of Christ ought to be offended every time his name is brought up in prayer or worship.

 

[JacksBratt]

Islam is not at all a "continuation of Judaism and Christianity". You need to read a bit on the comparisons of Christ to Mohammad.

I apologize.. Could have sworn that you said exactly what I quoted.... "continuation of Judaism and Christianity"

Another poster (post #31) seemed to read the same thing I did. Did you edit this post, after the fact?

 

[JosephZ]

I would appreciate it if you did not mix my reply with that of another poster who is making his own point, Joseph Z.

It seems you are easily offended. First the al Fatiha and now because I included another member's comment along side yours in giving a response on the same subject. You really shouldn't be so sensitive.

Again, the problem is not your credentials with regard to living among Muslims. This has nothing to do with anything.

Who would know more on this subject? A person who lives in a county with less than 3,000 Muslims and who has spent their entire life in a part of the US that where less than one half of one percent of the population is Muslim, or someone who began studying Islam more than thirty years ago who has been taught by both Christian and Islamic scholars on the subject, has lived in a predominantly Muslim country in the past, visited many more, and has interacted with Muslims from various backgrounds on four continents? Do you really think that experience and education doesn't matter when discussing a subject?

And I am relaying the viewpoints of people whose communities have lived under Islam for 14 centuries and counting in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Iraq, etc., and who themselves lived under it for their entire lives (were born as second class citizens under it, in fact) before coming to the United States. In some cases, my first time meeting some members of the community were people who had just arrived from the Gulf states the day before my meeting them, in other cases they were temporary residents in the USA on student or work visas, etc, I think they knew quite enough about what life is like with Islam and among Muslims.

I've been to Sudan, and probably some of the other countries included in the "etc" that you disn't include. I know several Muslims from the NA/ME region. Since you say the people you know from that region were born second class citizens, I assume you are talking about non-Muslims. Wouldn't Muslims from that region know more than non-Muslims about Islam and on how the al Fahita should be taken?

they do not say that it is some tiny number who view it that way, so why the heck should I believe you and not the people from my own Church who actually come from the Middle East where they are the native people there, rather than being missionaries with their own agendas?

My only agenda is the Truth, it always has been. I have no motivation to mislead anyone on this subject or any other I may discuss on this forum or in the real world.

Yeah, and where's the "less divisive, non-denominational" form of Surat al-Fatiha? Oh, that's right...there isn't one, despite your assurances.

You're right, there is only one version of the al Fatiha and you're one of the few people I have ever encountered that says they are offended by it, in fact, I cant remember remember the last time that I have.

And that does what to the traditional interpretation? And that does what for the people who do view it that way? And that does what for the actual text as written and understood by the earliest Muslim generations?.... Two commentaries of what weight? This is like saying "You only went to St. Athanasius and St. Cyril to explain the incarnation." Also, how many more would you need, really? We can go top shelf to bottom, but that's not what this is really about anyway.

I really hope you will take the time to do this. It will take you several weeks to do the research, but in doing so you will find that the majority of Islamic scholars and most Muslims view the al Fatiha as I have presented it in this thread.

Yeah...they condemn terrorism now, but how does this add up to apologies for the historical rape and pillaging of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Syria, Mesopotamia, etc. as demanded by Fr. Zakariya? It doesn't. Muslims won't apologize for any of that, because of course in the version of history they are fed by their leaders, it is good that all of those things happened.

Why should those living today who have no direct ties to wars past have to apologize for them?

As for recent times, The Lord's Resistance Army which wanted to establish a Christian state based on the Ten Commandments killed, maimed, raped, and mutilated approximately the same number of people as ISIS did in the Middle East. Where was the Christian apology? Christian Militias in the CAR have also slaughtered Muslims by the thousands. Christian terrorist groups in India have also ruthlessly killed hundreds and forced many more to convert to Christianity in recent years trying to establish a Christian state in the name of Jesus Christ. Christians have largely been silent on these issues.

Why should we hold Muslims to a different standard in demanding they apologize for groups like ISIS if we're not apologizing for Christian terrorists and the atrocities they commit?

The truth of the matter is that none of the examples I just gave represent true Christianity, just as ISIS and acts of terrorism don't represent true Islam. Why should either side have to apologize for atrocities carried out by groups that don't represent the religions they claim to follow? Anyone can claim to be a Christian or a Muslim, but that doesn't make them one.

 

[JosephZ]

I apologize.. Could have sworn that you said exactly what I quoted.... "continuation of Judaism and Christianity"

Another poster (post #31) seemed to read the same thing I did. Did you edit this post, after the fact?

No problem brother, as for editing the post in question, if I did, I'm pretty sure I didn't change anything in the post that would have altered the meaning. I was not stating what I believe, but rather Muslims. I said something very similar in another thread not to long ago.

Islam is a progressive religion and in the view of Muslims simply a continuation of Judaism and Christianity. If you ever have the opportunity to listen to an Islamic sermon or witness to Muslims you will find that they not only teach and learn from what Muhammad said, but also Moses, David, Jesus, etc.. Islam recognizes the same prophets as Christians.

 

[The Barbarian]

How do you think MS. Borowicz would have reacted if MS Harrell would have used an Islamic prayer stating all would submit to the teaching of Muhammad to open a session? Most likely the same.

Yep. This is why the Constitution forbids establishment of religion. Even as simple a violation as a government-endorsed prayer causes trouble.

 

[JacksBratt]

No problem brother, as for editing the post in question, if I did, I'm pretty sure I didn't change anything in the post that would have altered the meaning. I was not stating what I believe, but rather Muslims. I said something very similar in another thread not to long ago.

Thanks for clarification. I must have read it wrong.... happens.

 

[dzheremi]

It seems you are easily offended.

Not particularly. I just don't want my words entangled with those of another person who is making his own point.

First the al Fatiha and now because I included another member's comment along side yours in giving a response on the same subject. You really shouldn't be so sensitive.

His point of "Why don't Muslims condemn terrorism" is not the same as my point of "If Muslims actually cared about others beyond what it takes to lie to them and themselves about the nature of their religion and its history, they'd issue formal apologies for suppressing the identities of the native peoples of the Middle East and North Africa and destroying their traditional non-Muslim societies in the course of the conquests and subsequent Islamicization and Arabization of those societies, and the present slander against these non-Muslim communities in the Arab world." I already know Muslims condemn terrorism...just generally* not the terrorism of their forefathers which set them up in the privileged position which they have enjoyed for centuries across all of the forced-to-be-Muslim/forced-to-be-Arab world. (*There are, of course, not a few "Coptic Muslims" and others who are not aboard the dominant Arab-Muslim vision of their own societies, which is good. When I was at the monastery of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite some years ago one of the things the monk who was my guide was most proud to talk to me about was how they had serious religious Muslims with full beard and 'prostration spot' -- I've forgotten the word for this in Arabic, but it's the mark they get from a lifetime of bowing in prayer -- or full veil for the women who would come to the monastery to learn Coptic...so somewhere there are a group of Muslims out there praying in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the of the Holy Spirit, since the language and culture have been restricted to the churches and monasteries only, so it's impossible to learn the language without learning at least a little bit of Christian prayer.)

Who would know more on this subject? A person who lives in a county with less than 3,000 Muslims and who has spent their entire life in a part of the US that where less than one half of one percent of the population is Muslim

I'm sorry, but who is this referring to?

or someone who began studying Islam more than thirty years ago who has been taught by both Christian and Islamic scholars on the subject, has lived in a predominantly Muslim country in the past, visited many more, and has interacted with Muslims from various backgrounds on four continents? Do you really think that experience and education doesn't matter when discussing a subject?

I'm not saying you don't have experience and education, or that neither of those things matter. Of course they matter, and you should feel confident based on them to present your view here. I'm saying that simply referring to the fact that you've lived in those places or studied under such-and-such people for X number of years does not make your argument for you. Besides, living in places or studying things as an outsider is not the same as being a native Coptic, Syriac, Tewahedo, etc. person, so you are at best getting a sanitized version of these subjects necessarily at least somewhat disconnected from their effect on the everyday lives of the native Christians of the Middle East and Northern and Eastern Africa.

I've been to Sudan, and probably some of the other countries included in the "etc" that you disn't include. I know several Muslims from the NA/ME region. Since you say the people you know from that region were born second class citizens, I assume you are talking about non-Muslims.

Most of them, yes, though I have also known Muslims from Palestine, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Somalia, etc. Like most people living in a multicultural environment, there's a bit of everything here.

It's interesting that you (rightly) assume I was referring to the non-Muslims by saying "second-class citizens". I'm glad you admit that life under Islam means being a second class citizen for non-Muslims.

Wouldn't Muslims from that region know more than non-Muslims about Islam and on how the al Fahita should be taken?

I suppose, in the same way that the architects of Jim Crow laws would know more about how they 'should be taken' (since they set them up for their own benefit, after all) than the people who are more directly discriminated against by them. That doesn't say much for al-Fatiha or Islam in general, though.

My only agenda is the Truth, it always has been. I have no motivation to mislead anyone on this subject or any other I may discuss on this forum or in the real world.

Sorry, I should have clarified: I meant "outside agenda" in the sense of the missionary imperative, not something sinister. Obviously if you live by the maxim that you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar (as I assume you do, with the way you're defending Islam here due to your own background with it and work among its people), I doubt that you come to the subject or the people with your own 'demands', as in the case of Fr. Zakariya, to recall the example I brought up of another very different approach to witnessing to Muslims. That's something he can pull off to the extent he does precisely because he is not an outsider, unlike you and me, so he can speak to Egyptian Muslims in 'their own language', both literally and socially. (He speaks the language natively and understands Islam and the Qur'an in terms that are appropriate to the Egyptian context and has advantages therefore that we simply would not have.)

You're right, there is only one version of the al Fatiha and you're one of the few people I have ever encountered that says they are offended by it, in fact, I cant remember remember the last time that I have.

Well, okay then. Maybe when you are done living in whatever Muslim country or area you are in you can meet some Coptic people or Syriac people or others who have felt the sharp edge of that verse and the many others that condemn us for our belief in Christ as God, and in the Holy Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Where I am, it is not uncommon to have these criticisms of Islam on these grounds. Again, as Fr. Zakariya put it: "Okay, so you cannot change your Qur'an...so why do you ask us to change our belief? Why do you say we must believe as you do or face the sword?" That's Islam as my people have experienced it, and they should also be allowed to voice their concerns just as you can say all you want about your own experience of Islam as an outside researcher and learner. But these are not the same realities.

I really hope you will take the time to do this. It will take you several weeks to do the research, but in doing so you will find that the majority of Islamic scholars and most Muslims view the al Fatiha as I have presented it in this thread.

Again, I know this is not the point. I was not born yesterday. I may not have wasted 30 years of life studying the lies that the devil whispered to Muhammad in his cave, but I do know a stacked challenge when I see one. You will have me take the weight of all those who have a different interpretation and say "See, look how much more popular this is than what you have said", ignoring that Muhammad himself is claimed to have said that the best generation of Muslims is his own, and then those that came after him, and then those that came after them. So Islam values the earliest traditions, and the earliest interpretive traditions such as we have them (such as al-Tabari) clearly support this verse as being against the Christians the Jews. I don't know why you would run from that but that you have some point you think you're proving by saying "It's not meant to be offensive", which for all the reasons I've already pointed out in a different reply doesn't really mean anything. I don't even believe it anyway. You start your book by saying that I've gone astray by believing in my own religion and I'm going to take offense at that, sure. Don't Muslims take great offense at even the slightest disrespect shown to their religion, its figures, symbols, and so on? I believe they do. So this is a nothing point.

This is also why I have given arguably the two most popular and influential commentators as my evidence for the traditional understanding of the verse. I see you did not respond to my similar example of "only" consulting HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic and St. Cyril concerning the incarnation, which I think is quite apt if we consider that the Sunnis make up the vast majority of the Muslim world in a manner comparable to how Trinitarian, Nicene(-Constantinopolitan) Christians make up the vast majority of the world's Christians, and hence our greatest voices on a given topic would not be so easily ignored by those who do not adhere to the modern take on Sola Scriptura. Perhaps this offends your version of Christianity (I have no idea and don't really care, as that's not the ultimate point), but when we are talking about interpretation and application, it bears repeating that nothing in either religion is understood in a vacuum.

Why should those living today who have no direct ties to wars past have to apologize for them?

For the same nonsensical reason that we are constantly told by Muslims and Islamic sycophants that all the problems of the Muslim world are due to Western colonialism and wars in which no Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox, Melkite, Chaldean, Nestorian, or other local person who actually bears the brunt of anti-Christian violence in the MENA region participated in but to die alongside their Muslim neighbors. The truth is the Christians love(d) their countries, even after they were completely deformed by Islam, but Islam cares nothing for them in return. Did you not watch the video I linked earlier of HG Abp. Nicodemus Daoud al Sharaf of Mosul? He returned to Iraq from Australia because he missed his homeland, but the land for which he and his flock were willing to die spit him out and robbed him and his people of all dignity and safety. And that was for all intents and purposes yesterday, not a historical event. We can still look at it as symptomatic of the same problem because the treatment of non-Muslims under Islam doesn't change in any significant way until enough pressure is put on the Muslim world by outsiders that they are forced to change (e.g., the abolishing of the jizya in the 1850s or so in Egypt). Yes, sometimes it's better and sometimes it is worse (I'd rather have been an Armenian in the time of the Shah Abbas who helped to build New Julfa than an Egyptian under al-Hakim, who banned the Coptic language from being spoken in public ordered the tongue of any who spoke Coptic to be cut out), but it is never truly equal as we would understand the idea of citizenship. Membership in an Islamic society is inherently sectarian, and all non-Muslims are below any Muslims.

So don't talk to me about "Why should people who weren't involved in it have to do anything" as though it's not what 'their' entire damn societies are built upon. Do you think I was born yesterday, and will believe that just because you've had these wonderful experiences with Muslims in 30+ years, this repairs el Butroseya, or makes safe the road to the monastery of St. Samuel the Confessor, or shuts up idiots like Wagdi Ghoneim, or does anything in particular beyond letting you feel superior to me for your book learning and world travel? I'm not interested in such a conversation.

As for recent times, The Lord's Resistance Army which wanted to establish a Christian state based on the Ten Commandments killed, maimed, raped, and mutilated approximately the same number of people as ISIS did in the Middle East. Where was the Christian apology?

Yeah, and they're how many? A few thousand? Wiki says they're 100 as of 2017, down from a height of possibly as many as 3,000 ten years earlier. I'm not saying that means they aren't a problem (they certainly are, and need to be dealt with accordingly, by being fought and defeated and purged out of existence, no different than ISIS or similar groups), but to throw them out there as though they are comparable to the worldwide phenomenon of Islam-inspired terror is disingenuous at best. Even the higher number is several thousand less than the estimated number of Europeans who have joined ISIS (5,000+).

And anyway, quit arguing like an Islamic apologist by pointing to 'Christian' atrocities as though the point has ever been that Christians are entirely blameless around the world or never participate in violence. That's not the conversation we're having. Or at least that's not a conversation I will be having. Go deflect onto other issues with someone else.

Christian Militias in the CAR have also slaughtered Muslims by the thousands. Christian terrorist groups in India have also ruthlessly killed hundreds and forced many more to convert to Christianity in recent years trying to establish a Christian state in the name of Jesus Christ. Christians have largely been silent on these issues.

See above. You are completely missing the point of my post with trash like this.

Why should we hold Muslims to a different standard in demanding they apologize for groups like ISIS if we're not apologizing for Christian terrorists and the atrocities they commit?

When did I ever say that they had to? I think you're confusing me with the other guy you lumped my post together with. I already know Muslims condemn ISIS. Heck, numerically-speaking Muslims are the primary victims of ISIS.

The truth of the matter is that none of the examples I just gave represent true Christianity, just as ISIS and acts of terrorism don't represent true Islam. Why should either side have to apologize for atrocities carried out by groups that don't represent the religions they claim to follow? Anyone can claim to be a Christian or a Muslim, but that doesn't make them one.

Sorry, I don't play the "No true Scottsman" game, and by going off on some tangent about Christian violence in CAR or theocratic ambitions in India, you have shown that you clearly have not understood the point of my post. I think we're done here. I have no further interest in interacting with a dhimmi lick-spittle who has to "BUT WHAT ABOUT CHRIIIIISTIANS?" all over my post about the problems that people of indigenous MENA churches and cultures have always had with Islam, because Islam has clearly always had a problem with MENA Christians (and others, but that would come later).

You can deny that with all your fancy learning all you want. It amounts to nothing in the face of what actually happens to MENA Christians because of Islamist extremism, inspired by the fundamentalist strains of the Islamic religion. I'm glad you don't have to experience that. At the same time, I don't want any more enlightened pro-Islam nonsense in my thread, so I am going to place you on my ignore list now. Go preach Islam to someone who gives a damn and doesn't know any better. I know too many Middle Eastern and African Christians to swallow the rosy vomit you have swallowed, no matter how delicious you may claim that it is.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's good that she's offended. She's supposed to be offended. All enemies of Christ ought to be offended every time his name is brought up in prayer or worship.

Something tells me Jesus would be offended.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yep. This is why the Constitution forbids establishment of religion. Even as simple a violation as a government-endorsed prayer causes trouble.

Yeah, we are just witnessing a squabble now over who has the most quasi-established prayers. Perhaps we should place down some wood and see who can call down fire from heaven, too?

 

[The Barbarian]

His point of "Why don't Muslims condemn terrorism" is not the same as my point of "If Muslims actually cared about others beyond what it takes to lie to them and themselves about the nature of their religion and its history, they'd issue formal apologies for suppressing the identities of the native peoples of the Middle East and North Africa and destroying their traditional non-Muslim societies in the course of the conquests and subsequent Islamicization and Arabization of those societies, and the present slander against these non-Muslim communities in the Arab world."

Are you a citizen of the United States? If so, you feel a need to apologize to the native peoples of North America for the things European settlers did to suppress their identities in the course of the conquests and subsequent Christianization and Europeanation of these societies and the present slander against the non-European communities in the United States?

 

[The Barbarian]

It's interesting that you (rightly) assume I was referring to the non-Muslims by saying "second-class citizens". I'm glad you admit that life under Islam means being a second class citizen for non-Muslims.

Just as life under Christianity means being a second-class citizen for non-Christians.

That's why we don't have an established religion in the United States. As Jefferson pointed out:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson regarding Freedom of Religion, 1821

 

[JosephZ]

I'm sorry, but who is this referring to?

I read in posts you have made in the past that you currently live in northern California (Not going to mention the exact county in this thread) and were a native to that area. The number varied a little, but the county you live in has less than 3,000 Muslims according to what I was able to find out from googling the demographics of that county and from the Islamic Center of Santa Rosa's Facebook page.

Do you think I was born yesterday, and will believe that just because you've had these wonderful experiences with Muslims in 30+ years... You can deny that with all your fancy learning all you want. It amounts to nothing in the face of what actually happens to MENA Christians because of Islamist extremism, inspired by the fundamentalist strains of the Islamic religion. I'm glad you don't have to experience that.

Things are not all rainbows and butterflies in the communities I work in. I have seen acts of violence and the suffering that goes along with terrorist who claim to be acting in the name of Islam first hand. Here in Davao I was probably less than 200 meters away when a bomb went of at the local night market killing 15 people and injuring dozens more.

The villages of the people group that I work with were razed during a siege in 2013 in which many of them died from malnutrition and disease in the year that followed. Officials said at least 167 Badjaos, mostly children, have died since they moved to Cawa-Cawa after the siege.

Here are a couple of pictures of me on the island of Basilan where I often travel. The picture on the right is from the town of Maluso which happens to be the home town of the former Imir of the Islamic State's caliphate in Southeast Asia What ISIS follower Isnilon Hapilon's transcripts reveal about his childhood

Here are some headlines I was able to find from this island.

Troops, Abu Sayyaf clash in Basilan -- March 2, 2019

Logger killed in Basilan for failing to say Quran verses -- February 9, 2019 (Ironically the verses this man was unable to recite were the al Fatiha)

Basilan car bomb kills 11 -- January 11, 2018

Abu Sayyaf beheads couple in Basilan -- January 5, 2018

6 soldiers killed in clash with Abu Sayyaf in Basilan -- November 9, 2017

Abu Sayyaf bandits behead 7 captives in Basilan -- August 1, 2017

Sayyaf raiders in Basilan behead former soldier -- August 22, 2017

9 killed in Maluso massacre -- August 21, 2017

2 kids among 4 civilians killed in Basilan operations -- March 12, 2017

2 children killed, 3 injured in Basilan explosion -- January 17, 2017

157 Sayyaf men killed, 159 hurt in Sulu, Basilan -- December 21, 2016

Military says 18 soldiers killed, 53 wounded in clash with Abu Sayyaf April 9, 2016

The island of Basilan is quite small and roughly the size of my home county in North Carolina. (It's highlighted in red) Now imagine if you were reading those types of headlines coming out of your county on a regular basis.

As you can see, I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to Islam and Islamic extremism.

At the same time, I don't want any more enlightened pro-Islam nonsense in my thread, so I am going to place you on my ignore list now. Go preach Islam to someone who gives a damn and doesn't know any better.

I'm neither pro-Islam nor do I preach Islam. Islam is a false religion and Muhammad is a false prophet. I preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and how "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) I'm also willing to take this gospel to wherever God leads me, even if that means putting my life at risk to do so.

I think we're done here.

That's probably best.

 

[dzheremi]

Are you a citizen of the United States? If so, you feel a need to apologize to the native peoples of North America for the things European settlers did to suppress their identities in the course of the conquests and subsequent Christianization and Europeanation of these societies and the present slander against the non-European communities in the United States?

To the extent that doing so destroyed their cultures, ways of life, and languages, and they may want them back, we should support their rights to self-determination within the country (e.g., language programs and media, formal recognition of such rights, formal recognition of their right to indigenous religious practice, etc). In large part, such things are already happening (though they could always be better, I suppose) precisely because the United States, like many Western nations, has made an effort at least within my lifetime (past 40 years or so) to reconsider its previous mode of being towards the Native Americans, and cease or at least discourage perpetuating harmful stereotypes and discriminatory practices towards them.

Such is mostly not the case across the MENA region, wherein it is rare to find (just for instance) indigenous languages being taught at any official level. Many a Imazighen/'Berber' (the latter is pejorative, but what they are more often known by in Western languages, via Arabic via Greek) gave their lives in Algeria during the Berber Spring of 1980 for their right to have their language and culture officially recognized in the country, and they did eventually win that right, but much later (in 2002, when it was finally recognized as a national language in the constitution, following a subsequent uprising called the "Black Spring").

Here is one short list of the martyrs of the 1980 uprising for the indigenous North African Amazigh people of Kabyle in Algeria, accompanied by a song about their struggle by Algerian Kabyle secularist/nationalist/anti-Islamist martyr Matoub Lounes (assassinated by the Armed Islamic Group, an Al Qaeda-affiliated terrorist group in Algeria, in 1998), himself a hero in the ongoing struggle against Arabization and Islamicization:

That's a lot of names...and that's just from one period.

The Copts have not had even the opportunity for this, as their language was suppressed long ago, and their culture forcibly confined to only their churches and monasteries (you can definitely still see the traces of it all across Egyptian Arabic, however, with Coptic or 'Copto-Arabic' names like Abnoudi being fairly common). The Syriacs are a bit of a different picture, since they are so much more widespread, but one doesn't need to look far or remember too far back to find similar instances of their forced Turkfication/Arabization/Islamification and genocides and massacres, as in Turkey and in Simele (in Iraq).

Where is the reevaluation of any of this state of affairs, barring the talk of certain intellectuals whose ideas do not filter down to the mosques, where the same old hatred is preached about not being friends with the Christians or Jews, or how we're the sons of apes and pigs, or whatever else? Our bishops like HG Bishop Suriel have openly called out the Egyptian preachers for preaching hatred in their mosques, which they do. It's documented. There's very little tolerance for anything that isn't Islam, and there's no sense that it should be any other way.

That's why your comparison doesn't hold: Whereas the West (rightly) uses acts of violence like the horrible NZ mosque shooting to evaluate itself and see where it went wrong and how we can prevent such things from happening in the future, the few people in the MENA region who offer hope to those who want true secularism and pluralism usually get in trouble for it because they phrase it in ways that the Muslim majority find offensive, as the interviewer said of Fatima Naoot's comments regarding Arabic being forced on Egypt in the video I linked earlier. (NB: the same writer was subsequently jailed for insulting Islam after criticizing Eid al Adha pratices.)

So do I think we need to apologize to Native Americans? It depends, I suppose. I think the public shows of false contrition wherein idiots preface every talk they give at progressive universities like the Evergreen State College with long preambles about how they recognize that their college is built on stolen Native American land can be a bit much (we get it; you're 'down with the cause', chancellor), but I do think that when a Native American person talks about the horrible conditions on their reservations or some other thing that's realistically addressable, then it should be addressed. Again, the West has already at least begun to face up to its past of colonialism and slaughter. Where is the Muslim state that will admit that it was built on the same thing? It won't happen. The offensive wars to spread Islam were "God's" will, after all, no different than the justification that was given by the Western colonialists and murderers. And yet the Muslim Arabs forever get a pass. Why? Because they're poor, put-upon arch brown people? I don't buy it. Not so much in comparison to anyone I worship with, at least, so the only real difference is in religion, then. I guess people are afraid to call things as they are sometimes because they don't want to end up murdered like Matoub Lounes, but that's still the record of how things were and are. Islam is built on conquest and slaughter and the forced subjugation of the native people who would not convert to it.

So who should really apologize -- those who have already at least begun doing so (again, we're not 'better' than anyone on this account, and could always be doing better), or those who refuse to ever do so because their 'god' has given them all this (and indeed the whole world, in time), and their perfect prophet after all said that he would expel all the non-Muslims from the Arabian Peninsula and leave only Muslims in it? Maybe Muhammad himself should apologize for being a bigot, racist (look up some of the stuff in the hadith about black people; he supposedly called Ethiopians "raisin heads" and said a black man he didn't like was a physical representation of Satan), Muslim supremacist, and all this?

Yeahhhh...I won't hold my breath waiting for any of this to happen. Nice false equivalency there, though.

 

[dzheremi]

Just as life under Christianity means being a second-class citizen for non-Christians.

Oh. Great. More "WAAAAAH! WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS?!?!?!" nonsense. I thought this thread definitely needed more of that. Is this all you have? This is not even the topic of discussion.

How on earth are non-Christians "second class citizens" under Christianity, anyway? Did you forget that the actual topic of this thread is about a Muslim representative of the United States government is offended by something? That's how 'second class' they are. They get to whine and complain about the tiniest infringement on their personal comfort and it gets reported in national news outlets. Waaaaaah. I feel sooooooo terrible for the poor, oppressed non-Christian living in a modern Christian country. It must be so terrible. Why, I can't even imagine it. There's nothing like that in the traditional homelands of the people of my Church!

Nope. Can't imagine it at all. There's just no comparison between things like these and a Muslim being offended by something! The poor 'second class' citizens they are within 'Christianity'. It's so unfair. Let's coddle them forever.

That's why we don't have an established religion in the United States. As Jefferson pointed out:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson regarding Freedom of Religion, 1821

I agree with Jefferson. I'm glad we don't have an official state/national religion in the United States. What does this have to do with anything?

 

[The Barbarian]

If Muslims actually cared about others beyond what it takes to lie to them and themselves about the nature of their religion and its history, they'd issue formal apologies for suppressing the identities of the native peoples of the Middle East and North Africa and destroying their traditional non-Muslim societies in the course of the conquests and subsequent Islamicization and Arabization of those societies, and the present slander against these non-Muslim communities in the Arab world.

Barbarian asks:
Are you a citizen of the United States? If so, you feel a need to apologize to the native peoples of North America for the things European settlers did to suppress their identities in the course of the conquests and subsequent Christianization and Europeanation of these societies and the present slander against the non-European communities in the United States?

"WAAAAAH!

Calm yourself. I just asked if you were an American, did you hold yourself to the same standards and apologize for the same thing done here. So did you? I'm guessing your wailing indicates that you didn't.

How on earth are non-Christians "second class citizens" under Christianity, anyway?

Same way they are under Islamic rule. Where Christianity has been established, other religions are suppressed. This is why our founders determined to be sure the nation was not founded on Christianity.

Bad for other religions; even worse for Christianity.

Did you forget that the actual topic of this thread is about a Muslim representative of the United States government is offended by something?

It was probably a bad idea then to bring up the notion of religious people apologizing for oppressing others. (Who did that?)

(more whinging)

Waaaaaah.

Poor baby.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
Are you a citizen of the United States? If so, you feel a need to apologize to the native peoples of North America for the things European settlers did to suppress their identities in the course of the conquests and subsequent Christianization and Europeanation of these societies and the present slander against the non-European communities in the United States?

To the extent that doing so destroyed their cultures, ways of life, and languages, and they may want them back, we should support their rights to self-determination within the country (e.g., language programs and media, formal recognition of such rights, formal recognition of their right to indigenous religious practice, etc).

So did you apologize? Or not? That's the standard you put up. So tell us about it.

 

[dzheremi]

Calm yourself. I just asked if you were an American, did you hold yourself to the same standards and apologize for the same thing done here. So did you? I'm guessing your wailing indicates that you didn't.

You seem to be confusing the two replies. the "WAAAHH" was poking fun at your resorting to "But what about Christians/Christianity", just as the other now-ignored poster did, apropos of absolutely nothing, not in response to your question about Native Americans.

And I'm not sure, as it's been quite a few years, but I'm pretty sure I did as much with regard to apologizing for the mistreatment of Native Americans on this very board some time ago in conversation with the poster "One Voice Among Many", who was a Native American poster (or perhaps under a different ID; I think she went through more than one). I'd have to look, but at any rate, my posting history with regard to the Native Americans and support for their struggles is I imagine fairly solid. (Though of course I'm not the best judge of my own behavior.)

So, sure, I would, if they asked me to as Fr. Zakariya made known in the video I linked earlier regarding his own ten demands (I don't like the language of 'demands', but under the circumstances I think it's understandable as a rhetorical device). If the requests are built on solid reasons/things that actually happen, why wouldn't you apologize if asked? It's not like Fr. Zakariya or any other Coptic person is asking for money or land or something. Just the right to have their side of Egypt's story recognized, and to share their culture (religion, hymns, language, art, etc.) outside of the state-imposed Church ghetto. I know I'm biased, but I think that's pretty reasonable.

So I would say the same to the Native Americans: Yes, you should have all of those things. I would welcome them, and I am sorry that some of my ancestors coming here has led to the displacement and continued disadvantaging of your communities, and the struggle to regain what was lost in terms of the cultural assets that your people had/have. Even though there's nothing I can do about it by this point in terms of "going back home" (cf. the Arabs in all the lands they invaded and Arabized and Islamicized), since I'm an N-th generation whatever, I can at least acknowledge that yes, that stuff did happen, and yes it was wrong, and no I'm not going to glorify it or set it up as something that should be emulated or justified.

Same way they are under Islamic rule. Where Christianity has been established, other religions are suppressed.

How Islam suppressed in the United States of America? Is conversion to Islam illegal, like conversion from it to anything else is in a lot of the forced-to-be-Muslim world? Are converts to Islam whipped, jailed, and/or threatened with execution, as converts to Christianity are in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Iran?

This is why our founders determined to be sure the nation was not founded on Christianity.

That was very smart of them, yes.

Bad for other religions; even worse for Christianity

It was probably a bad idea then to bring up the notion of religious people apologizing for oppressing others. (Who did that?)

Did I say that this applied to the entire world, or was it quite clearly within the boundaries of Christian-Muslim relations in the Arab world, as outlined in Fr. Zakariya's speech? Maybe you didn't watch the video in question (where father specifically singles out "the leaders of the entire Arab world"), but the answer is the second one. You are for some reason trying to bring in colonial America or god knows where else when that was never the point. The point is, again, that Americans and Westerners more generally have done what Muslims largely (not entirely, but largely) refuse to do on principle, and yet we're constantly being told by the apologists for Islam as in this thread how terrible Christianity supposedly is or was based on entirely different sets of circumstances that don't even exist anymore, and that westerners themselves have largely repented of. I mean, did it somehow escape your notice that the examples of Christians behaving badly (i.e., behaving most like expansionist-minded, theocratic Muslim organizations) that the other poster could come up with were in Uganda and India? No prizes for guessing why that is...we mostly don't put up with such nonsense in the West, precisely because we're smart enough or lucky enough or whatever to have truly secular governments.

(more whinging)

Huh...quoting the offended Muslim represntative and her good dhimmi lackeys so late in the thread, are you?

Poor baby.

Yes, you do bafflingly treat Muslims as poor babies who need your defense from the horrible fate of being 'second class citizens' in a secular democracy where they are elected as state representatives in fair elections participated in by people of all faiths. It's quite strange, particularly set against the examples shown of how it is in Muslim-dominated nations where Christians cannot hope for anything of the kind, and are left to survey and pray in bombed out churches while smug, self-satisfied Libertarians cry an endless stream of tears for the most oppressed people ever: the Muslims.

I don't know what planet you are living on (probably the same one where I live in Santa Rosa,, California, according to the other guy; quite a feat -- wrong and slightly unnerving), but it's not the Earth that actually is.

 

[The Barbarian]

You seem to be confusing the two replies. the "WAAAHH" was poking fun at your resorting to "But what about Christians/Christianity",

Crying doesn't seem like "poking fun." I was just asking if you held yourself to the same standard. You responded: "WAAAHH."

And I'm not sure, as it's been quite a few years, but I'm pretty sure I did as much with regard to apologizing for the mistreatment of Native Americans on this very board some time ago in conversation with the poster "One Voice Among Many", who was a Native American poster (or perhaps under a different ID; I think she went through more than one). I'd have to look, but at any rate, my posting history with regard to the Native Americans and support for their struggles is I imagine fairly solid. (Though of course I'm not the best judge of my own behavior.)

That would have been a much better reply than your first attempt.

How Islam suppressed in the United States of America?

Abbasi points to statistics that show young Muslims are feeling more alienated. Muslim parents report bullying in K-12 school at nearly double the rate of Jewish kids and at more than double and triple the rates of Protestant and Catholic school-age children, respectively. In some cases that bullying is coming from teachers. A survey from the Pew Research Center found that about two-thirds of Muslims don't think other Americans see them as mainstream.
Coping With The Persistent Trauma Of Anti-Muslim Rhetoric And Violence

News of arrests in an alleged terrorist plot to attack their small village has sent “shock waves” through Islamberg, a predominantly black Muslim community in upstate New York, residents say.

Now, members of the beleaguered community say they want real action after learning that four young men had allegedly planned to attack their community with homemade explosives and guns.

“We are in shock. Just imagine waking up and having to tell your children about this plot, that their lives are in danger,” Islamberg Mayor Rashid Clark said in a news conference Wednesday (Jan. 23). “If our families are to be safe, we want all suspects caught and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.”

According to police, the plot to attack Islamberg unraveled when a 16-year-old high school student showed a photo on his phone to friends at Odyssey Academy in Greece, N.Y. Greece is about 200 miles northwest of Islamberg.

“He looks like the next school shooter, doesn’t he?” police say the teen told friends in the cafeteria.

Students reported the comment to authorities, who investigated and found that the 16-year-old was communicating with three other people, identified as fellow Boy Scouts, on the chat service Discord to coordinate an attack.

Together, they had allegedly stockpiled 23 legal firearms and built three homemade bombs using Mason jars, duct tape, black powder and projectiles like BBs and nails, according to police.

Greece police say it was part of a “serious plot” to attack Islamberg, which has been home to about 200 African-American Muslims for nearly 40 years. The 70-acre gated homesteading community, tucked in the western Catskill Mountains, is also the headquarters of The Muslims of America organization.

“If they had carried out this plot, and we have every indication that was what they were going to do, people would have died,” Greece Police Chief Patrick Phelan said in a statement. “The kid who said something saved people’s lives. Everything worked and as a result, nobody’s dead and that’s a good story.”
After police foil terrorist attack on Islamberg, New York Muslims push for justice - Religion News Service

When the president of the United States is a bigot who pushed for what he called a Muslim ban, it's not surprising that there will be stupid people who act on it.

In just the first two months of the year, at least four mosques have gone up in flames as attacks against religious minorities have surged.
Those fires follow "the worst year on record for incidents in which mosques were targets of bias," according to the Council of American-Islamic Relations.
CAIR documented 139 incidents of "damage/destruction/vandalism" at mosques last year -- the most since record-keeping began in 2009. It does not track fires separately.
"Islamophobic bias continues its trend toward increasing violence," said Corey Saylor, director of CAIR's Department to Monitor and Combat Islamophobia.
The wave of hostility comes as President Donald Trump campaigned on -- then enacted -- a temporary ban on travelers from Muslim-majority countries entering the United States. He is said to be drafting a new version after the first was struck down in court.
Here's a look at the mosque fires so far this year:
Spate of mosque fires stretches across the country - CNN

Yes, you do bafflingly treat Muslims as poor babies who need your defense from the horrible fate of being 'second class citizens' in a secular democracy where they are elected as state representatives in fair elections participated in by people of all faiths.

For a Christian, it's not baffling at all. It's what we are called to do. Yes, the Supreme Court slapped Trump down on his "Muslim ban." Yes, we don't kill people for being Muslims (although some of us do). And right-wing terrorists aren't burning as many mosques as burn in some countries.

Still, leaves a bad taste in the mouth for anyone who is Christian or American. You can do better than this. You are an American; you're expected to do better than you are doing. If you're a Christian, even more so.

Shortly after 9/11, I was in a video store with my daughter. A young woman said to me "I hear this is a very good movie." It was a way to start talking to me. She was Muslim, had a bad experience with someone that day, and was terrified that she was going to be harmed for what the terrorists did.

She sounded like the interviews with Jews who were running from the Holocaust. It was unnerving. I tried to reassure her that most Americans knew the difference between Muslims generally and Islamic militants, but I told her that there were stupid or evil people who might not.

We talked a while, and parted, with each of us asking for God's blessing on the other. My daughter and I talked a very long time, that night. It's tough explaining how religion can turn some people to evil, but she learned all about it that evening.

Instead of self-pity, remember what Jesus said.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:

There are Muslims doing that for you, right now. Can you do less and call yourself a Christian?

 

[section9+1]

Something tells me Jesus would be offended.

The same something that tells you to be offended.