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The Barbarian

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Ok, but hatred itself isn't evil,

It's intrinsically evil, in the same way that alcoholism and suicide are intrinsically evil. It's corrosive to the soul, and does you immense damage. Often, people don't get this. You don't avoid hate because it does bad things to others. You avoid it because it does bad things to you. This is exactly why Jesus told you to love your enemies.

For example, if you love good, then by your very nature you also hate evil

I love good, and I pity evil. Satan is the most pitiable of beings.

which is what the Bible says about God's nature. Christians must not hate any person, because all are made in the image of God, but we must hate sin, especially our own.

The "hate" in scripture can be misleading...
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

We aren't being told to actually hate anything. What He means is that we must be willing to give up everything on Earth we hold dear, if we want to follow Him.

This is the same Jesus who said that the essence of the Law is to love God and love our fellow man, so it's clear that we should be cautious about "hate" in scripture.

 
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timothyu

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Where is that written?

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
 
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dzheremi

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Very few people--including Christians--are able to hate a thing without hating the people who represent that thing.

This is a good point, but leads me to wonder when/if that can be recognized as actually having been achieved.

Several pages ago I posted a picture of the local Coptic priest from the church in NZ embracing the local Imam in an expression of support and shared grief for the loss of life in the terrorist shooting of the two mosques. People seemed to have taken well to that, as I don't think it's possible to fake that kind of sincere reaction (unless you're the type of person who assumes that every photo found on the internet is manipulated for this reason or that; I'm not). However, since then I have been apparently recast as someone who hates Muslims and cannot stand that 'we' are not legally allowed to discriminate against them.

I'm not sure how we got here, as nothing in my own church's approach to this matter (which is where I learned to make such a distinction to begin with) has changed. and apparently even our own priests' reactions to both what happens to the Muslims at the hands of sick Western terrorists (the NZ guy), and to what happens to us at the hands of sick Muslim terrorists (Fr. Boules George's sermon delivered after the Palm Sunday bombings in 2017, wherein we are told we are to thank the killers for what they did) aren't enough to convince at least some people that such a distinction is possible to make, and indeed has been made.

If anything, it's proof that I"m wasting my time interacting with people here (should probably just log off for the rest of Lent), but it's still disconcerting not for myself (I don't really care if I'm disagreed with here, in the end; I only seek to be clear, either way), but for the millions of Christians and other non-Muslims around the world who have lived under Islam for centuries who sincerely love their Muslim neighbors and friends and 'enemies', but really could not dislike more their religion, as it has proven itself in its base texts and traditional interpretations so very unlikable. (If 'hate' is suddenly a bad word to use.)

I would think that if any people have shown that it is both possible and has happened that we may hate the religion but love the people of the religion, that could be said of the Copts, the Syriacs, the Armenians, the Arab-Greeks, and so on.
 
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brinny

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Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Thank you Timothy. Edifying verses.

Would you care to elaborate what "loving one's enemy" looks like in real life, for example?
 
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The Barbarian

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I don't really know what sort of problem you're having understanding the explanation that this reply of yours is supposed to be addressing, but the "Waaah" was part of a reply mocking a different reply of yours

I see your denial, but what you said earlier, is more persuasive. Let it go; if you didn't mean it, it was probably a bad idea to say it.

It wasn't just "Waaah", it was "Waaaah, but what about Christians?"

We were talking about Europeans doing what you were demanding an apology from Muslims for doing. If you're an American, and made apologies for that, then you shouldn't be whinging about it.

That's what people who bring up Christianity to deflect criticism about Islam sound like to me, so I said it.

I just notice that many people who expect an apology for that, if some Muslims have done it, get upset if anyone applies the same standard to Christians.

It is in your brain only that it's me expressing self-pity.

If so, you chose a very unfortunate way to express yourself.

(Barbarian notes that killing people for being Muslims, burning their houses of worship, and trying to use government to harm them, is exactly what suppression is)

None of this is Islam being suppressed.

It's exactly what you were complaining about some Muslims doing to Christians. C'mon.

And Muslims are safer here, precisely because people here are restrained by laws. The same laws that some of our public officials are assailing for protecting them.

You're trying to make it as though social discrimination which the law can't do anything about

Killing people, burning their houses of worship, and twisting the law to harm them, seems like more than "social discrimination."

Now if you want to have Islam-favoring laws

The Bill of Rights is Islam-favoring. And Jewish-favoring. And Christian-favoring. And atheist-favoring. This is why people who hate Islam hate our religious freedoms.
 
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brinny

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And? They still hold Jesus Christ higher than Judaism does, who believe that he was a heretic.

I was speaking of Islam, per your post in #168. They deny Jesus the Christ's deity.

It sounds almost "Gnostic", doesn't it?
 
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dzheremi

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I see your denial, but what you said earlier, is more persuasive. Let it go; if you didn't mean it, it was probably a bad idea to say it.

To be honest, I'm not even sure I've properly kept track of what you're referring to here. What is it that you say that I said earlier that was more persuasive but I should "let go" of now?

We were talking about Europeans doing what you were demanding an apology from Muslims for doing. If you're an American, and made apologies for that, then you shouldn't be whinging about it.

I'm not whinging about anything in the first place. Near as I can tell, the entire phrase that you've latched on to was me saying that if Muslims cared so much about others viewpoints and feelings as they demand that others care about their own viewpoint (with their constant 'whinging' about western colonialism in 'their lands' being the true cause of both every bad thing that has ever happened to a Muslim or Muslims collectively, and of every bad thing a Muslim or a group of Muslims has ever done or will ever do), they'd offer the sorts of apologies demanded by Fr. Zakariya (not me), but they're obviously not going to do that because that would be essentially apologizing for and admitting the wrongness of the entire basis of the societies which they now call 'theirs' which they invaded and stole by their own Arab-Muslim colonialism -- you know, like Westerners have been doing for at least the last 40 years or so.

But instead they throw people like Fatima Naoout in jail for not being on board with erasing the pre-Islamic history of the societies the Arabs invaded and replaced with their savagery in the name of their God, no different than Westerners did to the Native Americans.

I just notice that many people who expect an apology for that, if some Muslims have done it, get upset if anyone applies the same standard to Christians.

Ironic given the above, innit?

If so, you chose a very unfortunate way to express yourself.

Again, you misread or misunderstood what I actually wrote. That's apparently my fault. Go figure.

(Barbarian notes that killing people for being Muslims, burning their houses of worship, and trying to use government to harm them, is exactly what suppression is)

Again, what I am talking about is legal standards as set in the different societies. I'm not saying that nobody ever kills a Muslim for being a Muslim, or burns down their mosque, or anything like that.

Geez Louise...are you deliberately mischaracterizing my point for fun or something? I don't get how this is so difficult to grasp.

It's exactly what you were complaining about some Muslims doing to Christians. C'mon.

is it? Is it really? Do you think that the NZ shooter, for instance, is going to get off scott free for killing 49 Muslims the same as the killers of the 21 Copts in El Kosheh did, with 89 people who had been charged with murder all let go? If you do, you must have very little faith in the NZ justice system. Maybe you know something about NZ that I don't.

And Muslims are safer here, precisely because people here are restrained by laws. The same laws that some of our public officials are assailing for protecting them.

I agree.

Killing people, burning their houses of worship, and twisting the law to harm them, seems like more than "social discrimination."

The point is that it's not legalized discrimination. In the MENA region, non-Muslims face legalized discrimination, in accordance with the Shari'a (or at least Shari'a compliant, as in Egypt) legal system. In the West, Muslims also face discrimination, but it is not legalized by the laws of the society that actively discriminate against them.

The Bill of Rights is Islam-favoring. And Jewish-favoring. And Christian-favoring. And atheist-favoring.

Hahaha. In other words not distinctly Islam-favoring. Yes. Thank you. May it be so forever and ever.

This is why people who hate Islam hate our religious freedoms.

You apparently really want this to be the case, but that doesn't make it so.
 
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The Barbarian

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The point is that it's not legalized discrimination. In the MENA region, non-Muslims face legalized discrimination, in accordance with the Shari'a (or at least Shari'a compliant, as in Egypt) legal system. In the West, Muslims also face discrimination, but it is not legalized by the laws of the society that actively discriminate against them.

Notice that lynchings were illegal, as was preventing blacks from voting. Nevertheless, both were widely carried out in the Southern states for many years. I don't think any of the victims took much comfort in the fact that what was being done to them was against the law.
 
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brinny

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Do you know what Gnosticism is? It's not about denying that Jesus was God.

i'm familiar with Gnosticism. It's what is spoken of in the New Testament regarding the heresies infiltrating the Church.

I won't go into it here. Suffice it to say that Gnosticism also called the living God, El Elyon, evil, amongst other things.

This warning speaks for itself:

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20
 
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dzheremi

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Notice that lynchings were illegal, as was preventing blacks from voting. Nevertheless, both were widely carried out in the Southern states for many years. I don't think any of the victims took much comfort in the fact that what was being done to them was against the law.

Yeah, gee...it's almost something being against the law doesn't magically stop it from happening (cf. the point I made earlier about terrorists not caring about the law), but this is a completely different point than the one I'm making about discrimination being done in accordance with the law, as in MENA countries that criminalize conversion from Islam to anything else, the proselytization of anything but Islam, treat Muslims and non-Muslims by different legal standards of evidence in a court of law, etc.

Your lynching comparison would only be applicable to the point I'm actually making if we had laws mandating lynching, which thank God is not the case.
 
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MournfulWatcher

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It's intrinsically evil, in the same way that alcoholism and suicide are intrinsically evil. It's corrosive to the soul, and does you immense damage. Often, people don't get this. You don't avoid hate because it does bad things to others. You avoid it because it does bad things to you. This is exactly why Jesus told you to love your enemies.



I love good, and I pity evil. Satan is the most pitiable of beings.



The "hate" in scripture can be misleading...
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

We aren't being told to actually hate anything. What He means is that we must be willing to give up everything on Earth we hold dear, if we want to follow Him.

This is the same Jesus who said that the essence of the Law is to love God and love our fellow man, so it's clear that we should be cautious about "hate" in scripture.
It is a logically correct statement. If I love justice, then I will hate injustice. If I hate murder/suicide, then I love life. If a then b. If you say hate is intrinsically evil, then you hate hate, which is logically impossible. What you actually hate is hatred towards people.

"15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Romans 7:15

In Hebrews 1 the author quotes Psalms about Jesus saying:

"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions"

"9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good." Romans 12:9

So hatred is not intrinsically evil and we are even commanded to hate our sin. This is actually fundamental to Christianity; the whole reason Jesus came into the world was because He hated our sin, but loved us. So anyone saved by Him would be divorced from their sin.

Jesus tells us to love our enemies because they are people, like us, and because we have also done evil and are no better than they, and yet God still saved us. But it is sin we must despise; if we do not, then sin becomes permissible.

The modern world hates the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin". While it is a worn and tired phrase, the meaning behind it is actually very orthodox. Non-believers (and Christians living incorrectly) have to constantly condemn others because they cannot separate a person from the wrong actions they commit, therefore making forgiveness impossible, and can likewise turn to hating themselves when they do wrong. It's very unhealthy and sinful, and the separation is important.
 
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timothyu

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Would you care to elaborate what "loving one's enemy" looks like in real life, for example?

Best thing would be not to do things to make them enemies in the first place which in all cases revolves around gain at the expense of others.. for instance on a global scale not go around destabilizing their countries, on a local scale not doing to that what you wouldn't want them to do to you, .. for instance, theft, bad mouthing, adultery etc.. But if already one is an enemy the old thorn removal from the paw analogy works too. No gain at the expense of others trumps the other way around.
 
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