First female Muslim member of Pennsylvania House offended by GOP member's prayer before swearing-in

[Yarddog]

I'm sure she would have thrown a huge indignant fit because she's a conservative Christian. I imagine she would have gone on a rampage about how Muslims are trying to take over America and something about America being a Christian nation and founded on Christian principles, blah... blah... blah...

And you would have heard conservative political pundits ranting.

 

[FireDragon76]

"...when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

Maybe we could dispense with "show prayers" altogether?

I gotta wonder why they read this passage on Ash Wednesday, right before we put ashes on our heads. I guess few people sense the irony the way I do.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

And you would have heard conservative political pundits ranting.

Yes, all the indignant conservative political pundits who support and defend a twice divorced unrepentant adulterous philander who had an affair with a inappropriate content star and bragged about groping multiple women. Yes, I can see how we should take their righteous indignant ranting seriously.

 

[anna ~ grace]

The Al-Fatihah is simply a repitition of the Jewish theme of the Two Ways, which Jesus also echoes in his own prayer, "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil". There is no need to read something sinister into the prayer. The reptition is simply a poetic chiasm, similar to what is found in the Bible.

No, it's not. I am a former Muslim. We all know the context.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, it's not. I am a former Muslim. We all know the context.

Is that the only possible interpretation? Jesus also uses a chiasm in his own prayer. "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".

Perhaps the original intention by the author wasn't to single out Jews and Christians, that's all I'm saying.

 

[MariaJLM]

This is so bizarre to me. Perhaps because I never really hear of Canadian government sessions opening with prayers(granted, I also don't pay much attention because eww politics). Like, why do it at all? It's no secret that America is multicultural, thus has people of all faiths. Is that really so hard to respect? A suitable compromise I think, if there must be a prayer, would be to just have a generic one addressing God rather than Jesus, Allah, Krishna, etc. That way everybody can be happy(except for the theocrats that want everything to be their faith only).

 

[anna ~ grace]

Is that the only possible interpretation? Jesus also uses a chiasm in his own prayer. "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".

He does, but it is not the same thing, Sir. Muslim explanations of the Quran give this exact meaning in footnotes, formal books, and classical commentaries on the Quran.

 

[dzheremi]

The Al-Fatihah is simply a repitition of the Jewish theme of the Two Ways, which Jesus also echoes in his own prayer, "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil". There is no need to read something sinister into the prayer. The reptition is simply a poetic chiasm, similar to what is found in the Bible.

She's not reading anything into it, unless you want to claim the same about the Muslims who have traditionally interpreted it themselves in their own commentaries.

From the tafsir (explanation) of Ibn Kathir, the most respected and authoritative of the medieval exegetes of the Qur'an (considered second only to al-Tabari among the Sunni, particularly the Salafists who are most politically active):


(غَيۡرِ ٱلۡمَغۡضُوبِ عَلَيۡهِمۡ وَلَا ٱلضَّآلِّينَ)
(Not (the way) of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray) meaning guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom you have bestowed Your grace, that is, the people of guidance, sincerity and obedience to Allah and His Messengers. They are the people who adhere to Allah's commandments and refrain from committing what He has prohibited. But, help us to avoid the path of those whom Allah is angry with, whose intentions are corrupt, who know the truth, yet deviate from it. Also, help us avoid the path of those who were led astray, who lost the true knowledge and, as a result, are wandering in misguidance, unable to find the correct path. Allah asserted that the two paths He described here are both misguided when He repeated the negation `not'. These two paths are the paths of the Christians and Jews, a fact that the believer should beware of so that he avoids them. The path of the believers is knowledge of the truth and abiding by it. In comparison, the Jews abandoned practicing the religion, while the Christians lost the true knowledge. This is why `anger' descended upon the Jews, while being described as `led astray' is more appropriate of the Christians. Those who know, but avoid implementing the truth, deserve the anger, unlike those who are ignorant. The Christians want to seek the true knowledge, but are unable to find it because they did not seek it from its proper resources.

This is why they were led astray. We should also mention that both the Christians and the Jews have earned the anger and are led astray, but the anger is one of the attributes more particular of the Jews. Allah said about the Jews,

(مَن لَّعَنَهُ ٱللَّهُ وَغَضِبَ عَلَيۡهِ)
(Those (Jews) who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath) (5:60).

The attribute that the Christians deserve most is that of being led astray, just as Allah said about them,

﴿ قَدۡ ضَلُّواْ مِن قَبۡلُ وَأَضَلُّواْ ڪَثِيرً۬ا وَضَلُّواْ عَن سَوَآءِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ ﴾
(Who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the right path) (5:77).

---

And what does al-Tabari say about it? Let's see:

"'Those who are astray' are those whom God has described in his revelation: 'People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds of your religion [....]."

There's a lot more at the link, but basically anyone who knows even one thing about the Islamic religion and its relation to previous religions knows that 'People of the book' is their term for Jews and Christians.

So again, there's no "reading anything sinister" into it, unless you think the two greatest commenters on the meaning of the Qur'an are "reading something into it", in which case, Muslims very much disagree with you.

Can we all stop accusing others of things they aren't doing in order to make Islam sound better than it is, please?

When, not if, the Western world is overrun with calls for Shari'a from within its own governments, it will be because this baffling reflexive need of well-meaning people to hide the truth of the content and meaning Islamic sources from the general public led to more and more religious illiteracy until everyone has lost their sense of there being any difference between religions or the outcomes of embracing one over the other.

 

[FireDragon76]

So you've shown me there's a long tradition of interpreting the prayer as condemning Christians and Jews. But I doubt that's how the prayer is understood by the Muslim representative in question, Rep. Movita Johnson-Harrell. If it were, then we could make a case her prayer is just as bad, I suppose.

 

[JosephZ]

He does, but it is not the same thing, Sir. Muslim explanations of the Quran give this exact meaning in footnotes, formal books, and classical commentaries on the Quran.

What was written in the al Fatiha is not much different than what you can find in the Bible. Muhammad was heavily influenced by Judaism and Christianity in his day and the verses below for example sound very similar to what is found in the al Fatiha.

Isaiah 3:12
Youths oppress My people, and women rule over them. O My people, your guides mislead you; they turn you from your paths.

Isaiah 9:16
For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion.

Amos 2:4
This is what the LORD says: "For three transgressions of Judah, even four, I will not revoke My judgment, because they have rejected the law of the LORD and have not kept His statutes; they have been led astray by the lies in which their forefathers walked.

 

[anna ~ grace]

What was written in the al Fatiha is not much different than what you can find in the Bible. Muhammad was heavily influenced by Judaism and Christianity in his day and the verses below for example sound very similar to the last line in the al Fatihah.

Isaiah 3:12
Youths oppress My people, and women rule over them. O My people, your guides mislead you; they turn you from your paths.

Isaiah 9:16
For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion.

Amos 2:4
This is what the LORD says: "For three transgressions of Judah, even four, I will not revoke My judgment, because they have rejected the law of the LORD and have not kept His statutes; they have been led astray by the lies in which their forefathers walked.

Joseph, Islam is not Christianity. There is a context, within the faith of Islam, the experiences of Muhammad with Jews and Christians, and the specific theology of the Quran, and of Muhammad.

 

[MariaJLM]

Okay, since this thread seems to be turning into the standard "Islam is evil" type thread I'll just say this: Yes, Islam is a false religion and perhaps even a cult, but most Muslims are sincere good people simply worshipping God in the way they were taught. The ones that actually seek to take over the West and kill Christians certainly do not entail the entire faith. I may have not been raised Muslim or anything, but I was a convert for about a year before I became Christian so have "inside info" to some extent.

 

[timothyu]

I think, if there must be a prayer, would be to just have a generic one addressing God

As the Founding Fathers did, addressing God but not particular faiths.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Okay, since this thread seems to be turning into the standard "Islam is evil" type thread I'll just say this: Yes, Islam is a false religion and perhaps even a cult, but most Muslims are sincere good people simply worshipping God in the way they were taught. The ones that actually seek to take over the West and kill Christians certainly do not entail the entire faith. I may have not been raised Muslim or anything, but I was a convert for about a year before I became Christian so have "inside info" to some extent.

So was I. It would be incorrect to say that Islam does not see itself as replacing, correcting, and triumphing over Christian Faith with Tawhid, ideologically and practically, if possible.

 

[redleghunter]

Are you admitting that MS Borowicz would have acted the same? If so, then MS Harrell did nothing more than most conservative Christians would have done.

Sure people don't have to listen to prayers and can take a powder break if they are going to be infinitely offended.

 

[FireDragon76]

Okay, since this thread seems to be turning into the standard "Islam is evil" type thread I'll just say this: Yes, Islam is a false religion and perhaps even a cult, but most Muslims are sincere good people simply worshipping God in the way they were taught. The ones that actually seek to take over the West and kill Christians certainly do not entail the entire faith. I may have not been raised Muslim or anything, but I was a convert for about a year before I became Christian so have "inside info" to some extent.

I used to hang out with Muslims on Second Life. They were very sincere and hospitable people. They knew I went to an Orthodox church and didn't care. They even called me "Brother". I didn't have to agree with them to respect what was good about them.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm sure she would have thrown a huge indignant fit because she's a conservative Christian.

How sure are you?

 

[MariaJLM]

I used to hang out with Muslims on Second Life. They were very sincere and hospitable people. They knew I went to an Orthodox church and didn't care. They even called me "Brother".

Yes. I have some Muslim friends myself. They are so gentle and sweet. The woman was crying when the mosque shooting in Quebec happened. She was so scared.

 

[FireDragon76]

So was I. It would be incorrect to say that Islam does not see itself as replacing, correcting, and triumphing over Christian Faith with Tawhid, ideologically and practically, if possible.

Of course, in the same way Christians look upon Jews, and Jews look upon polytheists. Everybody gets to crap on everybody else if they want to, but I prefer to be less messy than that.

 

[MariaJLM]

So was I. It would be incorrect to say that Islam does not see itself as replacing, correcting, and triumphing over Christian Faith with Tawhid, ideologically and practically, if possible.

Again, no argument from me there, but that doesn't mean all Muslims are proponents of radical political Islam. Most are just regular people trying to live their lives.