First female Muslim member of Pennsylvania House offended by GOP member's prayer before swearing-in

[anna ~ grace]

I agree that most Muslims are decent, prayerful people who go along with the best parts of their faith, and try to live decent lives. That is true. But to turn a blind eye to the overall tenor of the Quran and hadith towards Christians would be overdoing the graciousness, imho. It only takes one guy to suggest to parts of the Ummah "hey, let's implement this stuff!" to get things moving in a very bad direction. Just saying.

 

[dzheremi]

So you've shown me there's a long tradition of interpreting the prayer as condemning Christians and Jews. But I doubt that's how the prayer is understood by the Muslim representative in question, Rep. Movita Johnson-Harrell. If it were, then we could make a case her prayer is just as bad, I suppose.

Mrs. Johnson-Harrell's personal belief isn't the issue. She didn't write the Qur'an nor the classical tafsir that are used to interpret it. Like it or not (and I very much don't, as I know that the average American-born Muslim is much less sectarian-minded than their prophet and his book are; I didn't start this to be an anti-Muslim thread, because frankly I think both sides are being dumb; check the tags) the Qur'an stands as it is and the tafsir as they are regardless of anyone's personal belief.

Following one's personal belief separate from the customary ways and interpretations of Islam is innovation according to Sunni Islam, and that's one of the worst things you can do in that religion.

 

[timothyu]

There have been millions of Muslims in America since the 60's especially, and all home grown, at least as far as their ancestors were often forced immigrants, ie. slaves. Have they for 50 years been a threat to Christianity? Have they taken over society and the system? Perhaps the modern Muslim beef is over those from a certain area of the world. Thank you Mr Cheney and the military-industrial complex for pointing them out once communism was no longer politically and financially advantageous.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Of course, in the same way Christians look upon Jews, and Jews look upon polytheists. Everybody gets to crap on everybody else if they want to, but I prefer to be less messy than that.

Surah 9, Ayat 28-33

It's worth looking into.

 

[MariaJLM]

Mrs. Johnson-Harrell's personal belief isn't the issue. She didn't write the Qur'an nor the classical tafsir that are used to interpret it. Like it or not (and I very much don't, as I know that the average American-born Muslim is much less sectarian-minded than their prophet and his book are; I didn't start this to be an anti-Muslim thread, because frankly I think both sides are being dumb; check the tags) the Qur'an stands as it is and the tafsir as they are regardless of anyone's personal belief.

Following one's personal belief separate from the customary ways and interpretations of Islam is innovation according to Sunni Islam, and that's one of the worst things you can do in that religion.

To be fair there is a Muslim version of Sola Scriptura, though. The Qur'anist movement is all about that. Just before I left I was a bit involved with them. They reject the ahadith and other Extraquranical(I made up a word? Lol) sources entirely.

 

[dzheremi]

triumphing over Christian Faith with Tawhid

Hey, hey...watch it now! As Nicene Christians, we all believe in Tawhid, just not Islam's version of it. (Just like any Arabic-speaking Christian will tell you they believe in Allah, just not Islam's version of Him.)

Nomen bi-Ilahun Wahidun, Allah al-Ab, dabet el-kul...

 

[mina]

Politicians should pray on their own time. It shouldn't be part of a secular gov't ceremony.

In fact if they just did their jobs at work and prayed more in their personal lives , it would probably keep most of them out of trouble.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hey, hey...watch it now! As Nicene Christians, we all believe in Tawhid, just not Islam's version of it. (Just like any Arabic-speaking Christian will tell you they believe in Allah, just not Islam's version of Him.)

Nomen bi-Ilahun Wahidun, Allah al-Ab, dabet el-kul...

Ha! You got me. But yeah, the Islamic Tawhid technically calls for the death / subjugation of all who deny it, especially in favor of the Trinity. Not good for Christians in areas where a cleric decides that his community needs to put this into practice, to teach people a lesson.

 

[dzheremi]

To be fair there is a Muslim version of Sola Scriptura, though. The Qur'anist movement is all about that. Just before I left I was a bit involved with them. They reject the ahadith and other Extraquranical(I made up a word? Lol) sources entirely.

Yeah, and they're tiny and insignificant.

Sorry, but it's the truth. They're like 0.000001% of Muslims, and often persecuted by the establishment to the point where they cannot spread their message at all. (And anyway, the Qur'an alone is not any better to non-Muslims, so what should we care?)

 

[JosephZ]

Joseph, Islam is not Christianity. There is a context, within the faith of Islam, the experiences of Muhammad with Jews and Christians, and the specific theology of the Quran, and of Muhammad.

I know Islam isn't Christianity and all about the experiences Muhammad had with the Jews and Christians and the theology of both the Qur'an and Muhammad. Islam is simply a progressive religion and in the view of Muslims simply a continuation of Judaism and Christianity.

 

[MariaJLM]

Yeah, and they're tiny and insignificant.

Sorry, but it's the truth. They're like 0.000001% of Muslims, and often persecuted by the establishment to the point where they cannot spread their message at all. (And anyway, the Qur'an alone is not any better to non-Muslims, so what should we care?)

I know they're a tiny minority, but I figured I'd point it out anyway.

 

[JacksBratt]

How do you think MS. Borowicz would have reacted if MS Harrell would have used an Islamic prayer stating all would submit to the teaching of Muhammad to open a session? Most likely the same.

How do you think that Movita Johnson-Harrell would have been treated in Iran?

 

[anna ~ grace]

I know Islam isn't Christianity and all about the experiences Muhammad had with the Jews and Christians and the theology of both the Qur'an and Muhammad. Islam is simply a progressive religion and in the view of Muslims simply a continuation of Judaism and Christianity.

That's definitely not how I would describe Islam. "Progressive". I know what you mean, from a Muslim point of view, but you can't really tow the Muslim line about what Islam is / considers itself and also be genuinely faithful to the New Testament. It's just not compatible.

 

[JacksBratt]

I know Islam isn't Christianity and all about the experiences Muhammad had with the Jews and Christians and the theology of both the Qur'an and Muhammad. Islam is simply a progressive religion and in the view of Muslims simply a continuation of Judaism and Christianity.

Islam is not at all a "continuation of Judaism and Christianity". You need to read a bit on the comparisons of Christ to Mohammad.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This prayer wasn't Dhimmi compliant.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yeah, and they're tiny and insignificant.

Sorry, but it's the truth. They're like 0.000001% of Muslims, and often persecuted by the establishment to the point where they cannot spread their message at all. (And anyway, the Qur'an alone is not any better to non-Muslims, so what should we care?)

At one time my religion was a religion of one too, in some respects, so that doesn't particularly bother me.

People should be judged as people, not their religions.

 

[dzheremi]

Ha! You got me. But yeah, the Islamic Tawhid technically calls for the death / subjugation of all who deny it, especially in favor of the Trinity. Not good for Christians in areas where a cleric decides that his community needs to put this into practice, to teach people a lesson.

Indeed. I mostly wrote that because I know there are Christians (not like yourself or other former Muslims) who think that this is a "Muslim" concept or idea, or Allah is a "Muslim" God or whatever. Islam and Muslims have been pretty successful at attempting to completely own and control the Arabic language (see: that stupid case in Malaysia where Christians were told they couldn't use "Allah" in their publications; I guess they had to borrow their own separate loanword?), but luckily we already have cognates to this one in related languages spoken by Christians, like in Amharic. There's a theological reason why the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is properly named the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. (Tewahedo = "being made one", in reference to the non-Chalcedonian affirmation of the union of natures at the incarnation, but it also works in contexts like this where a Muslim might argue that we don't believe in Tawhid period because we don't believe in Islamic tawahid; well, guess which particular Church and faith predates Muhammad by hundreds of years, in a land that happens to have been very historically important to Islam's survival at that? )

 

[JosephZ]

Islam is not at all a "continuation of Judaism and Christianity". You need to read a bit on the comparisons of Christ to Mohammad.

I didn't say that it was.

 

[cuplet]

Christian faith being shown by Christians in prayer is offensive and needs to be silenced? Belief in Christ as God is a "weapon"? Wow.

I agree with you. This is a world turned upside down. My Pastor, (Pentecostal) said,a few years back, that "We live in an ABC world. "Anything but Christ." He meant that it's very sad. Also, when the shoe is on the other foot........

Christian faith being shown by Christians in prayer is offensive and needs to be silenced? Belief in Christ as God is a "weapon"? Wow.

 

[dzheremi]

At one time my religion was a religion of one too, in some respects, so that doesn't particularly bother me.

Yeah, and Islam is not Christianity and already had its attempt at reformation which totally failed (see: the Mu'tazilites), so this is completely irrelevant.

People should be judged as people, not their religions.

I agree. It's a shame that Islam itself doesn't agree with us, but again, I have hope that the average American-born Muslim is (for now, anyway) much less sectarian than their prophet or his book or the other Muslim sources are.