FireDragon76

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That's definitely not how I would describe Islam. "Progressive". I know what you mean, from a Muslim point of view, but you can't really tow the Muslim line about what Islam is / considers itself and also be genuinely faithful to the New Testament. It's just not compatible.

There have been Christians though, even theologians, who have considered Islam as a kind of revelation. Mostly ones that lived in the ME in the middle ages and had contact with Muslims, including dialogue. Also Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate acknowledges that there is a degree of truth in Islam.
 
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anna ~ grace

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There have been Christians though, even theologians, who have considered Islam as a kind of revelation. Mostly ones that lived in the ME in the middle ages and had contact with Muslims, including dialogue. Also Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate acknowledges that there is a degree of truth in Islam.
Islam gets some things technically right. There is one god. True. Heaven and Hell and Judgement are real things. True. Prayer is important. True.

But Islam denies the Sonship and divinity of Christ, denies the crucifixion, and threatens Christians who continue to hold onto the Trinity in light of Islamic monotheism. Whoever does not have the Son, does not have the Father, also, even if they do affirm that there is one god. So, one must be careful.
 
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dzheremi

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There have been Christians though, even theologians, who have considered Islam as a kind of revelation. Mostly ones that lived in the ME in the middle ages and had contact with Muslims, including dialogue. Also Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate acknowledges that there is a degree of truth in Islam.

Well, revelations from Satan certainly are a kind of revelation, yes.

As for the early Christian commentors on the Qur'an and Islam from the MENA region, you will not find one that affirms it as being from God, but you will find plenty who take the Muslim assumption that it is so and use that against the arguments Muslims make, as is the case for instance in Mor Dionysius Bar Salibi's A Response to the Arabs (12th century). Others are more straight mocking, like St. John of Damascus, which is also appropriate at times.
 
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FireDragon76

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Yeah, and Islam is not Christianity and already had its attempt at reformation which totally failed (see: the Mu'tazilites), so this is completely irrelevant.

Yeah, I know of them. It's interesting that Aquinas was very much influenced by Muslim Aristotilians, whereas Sunni Islam itself later rejected their thought altogether. It's like they took a wrong turn as a civilization.
 
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dzheremi

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Yeah, I know of them. It's interesting that Aquinas was very much influenced by Muslim Aristotilians, whereas Sunni Islam itself later rejected their thought altogether. It's like they took a wrong turn as a civilization.

Yeah, there's a lot of interaction on that front between certain Western Christian figures and Islamic figures and ideas. This is probably why Islam gets so much credit in the West for things that Christians in the East recognize as being founded by their own people.

This is a pretty angry interview (rightfully so; HG had his diocese in Mosul taken over by ISIS, and he and his people were exiled and/or murdered), but HG Archbishop Nicodemus Daoud al Sharaf of the Syriac Orthodox Church in Iraq explains it quite well here when he mentions that history will condemn the Syriac people for having translated books into Arabic for the Arabs:


^ This is the truth. The Muslim Arabs couldn't have learned anything themselves, as everything they did do was built on what their 'protected people' (Christians, Jews, Persians) did for them. I would argue that this is because Islam is inherently regressive, but that's for another thread...
 
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dzheremi

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I wish Islam was illegal.

Well it's not, and we should be glad that it's not. In America, anyway, the 'marketplace of ideas' is supposed to be free and open, and in such an environment Islam loses 100% of the time, because it's awful.

Let's keep awful ideas legal, both out of our own commitment to freedom of thought and speech and our confidence that we can beat them on a level playing field (assuming we can get one with regard to this religion eventually/'Islamophobia' is properly redefined as being awful towards Muslim people, not criticism of Islam which is richly deserved).
 
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MariaJLM

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I wish Islam was illegal.

Repressing their freedom of religion makes you almost as bad as the radical Muslims. They don't ban Christianity typically, but they do make it nearly impossible to practice.
 
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In America, anyway, the 'marketplace of ideas' is supposed to be free and open, and in such an environment Islam loses 100% of the time, because it's awful

Except the exact opposite seems to be happening. This "free and open" environment is now protecting and nourishing Islam.
 
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Repressing their freedom of religion makes you almost as bad as the radical Muslims. They don't ban Christianity typically, but they do make it nearly impossible to practice.

For those who aren't aware of the obvious, Jesus' Kingdom will be a Christian theocracy. That's the world I want to live in. A world where truth and falsehood are treated equally for the sake of niceness is not ideal.
 
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FireDragon76

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Repressing their freedom of religion makes you almost as bad as the radical Muslims. They don't ban Christianity typically, but they do make it nearly impossible to practice.

I'm no fan of any kind of religious fundamentalism. If anything shows my firm belief in human depravity, it's our ability to turn our noblest ideals into the darkest realities.
 
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MariaJLM

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For those who aren't aware of the obvious, Jesus' Kingdom will be a Christian theocracy. That's the world I want to live in. A world where truth and falsehood are treated equally for the sake of niceness is not ideal.

We can't really compare heaven to Earthly nationstates since Earth is filled with fallen and flawed human beings. Those in heaven have already reached a state of perfection(or "Theosis" to use the more Orthodox term).
 
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FireDragon76

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For those who aren't aware of the obvious, Jesus' Kingdom will be a Christian theocracy. That's the world I want to live in. A world where truth and falsehood are treated equally for the sake of niceness is not ideal.

You are confusing human imagery in the Bible, meant to be understood metaphorically, with the way of the Galilean peasant who shared a radical grace with the outcasts of this world.

As Leonard Cohen said of Jesus,

"Any guy who said "Blessed are the poor. Blessed are the meek" has got to be a figure of unparalleled generosity and insight and madness.. . A man who declared himself to stand among the thieves, the prostitutes and the homeless. His position cannot be comprehended. It is an inhuman generosity. A generosity that would overthrow the world if it was embraced because nothing could weather that compassion..."

Perhaps Cohen, as a Jew, understood something you as a Christian do not, about Jesus.

Personally, I cannot imagine Jesus running a theocracy. As my religion teaches, God's kingdom is the gentle reign of grace in the human heart.
 
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dzheremi

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Except the exact opposite seems to be happening. This "free and open" environment is now protecting and nourishing Islam.

Because it's not free and open due to this 'Islamophobia' meme/parasite that has infected the brains of the loudest idiots in the political sphere of the West. Redefine that properly (because, yes, Muslims have been and are specifically targeted in some cases purely because they are Muslim; we have seen that) and then we will have the level playing field we must have to show Islamists and Islam the door -- which won't mean Islam will be illegal (again, that's wrong and there won't be a reason for it), but will mean that the Muslims will understand that they are but one part of the multi-religious West, with no hope of taking it over or ruling it no matter what their book, prophet, traditions, or false god have to say about the matter.

Right now, the West is being held hostage by this idea that criticizing Islam or the actions of Muslims is racial hatred towards people (because of course Muslims and only Muslims are poor, oppressed arch-brown people :rolleyes:...Copts, Syriacs, Tewahedo Orthodox, the Christian Dinka and Neur who just fought for something like 50 years for the independence of South Sudan, the mixed Nubian-Coptic population in Sudan and Upper Egypt...none of these people exist), because of course there is such racial hatred as we've seen in NZ and elsewhere. So those who would criticize Islam are now on thin ice, socially and in some places legally (e.g., UK and other places where hurting someone's feelings can land you in jail), but it's still something that must be done.

As someone who worships with actual brown and black people from Africa by choice as often as I possibly can, I see through this equivocation (I learned very early on in my journey to Orthodoxy that you don't ask Coptic people about Islam or its conquest of their country unless you want a very long and very angry diatribe), but I also see why it's there, and it's not because of the informed criticism of the religion and its principles by people who have been oppressed by it for 14 centuries and counting. It's just that the West is full of useful idiots who can't or don't want to tell the difference between someone yelling at a woman in front of them in line at Starbucks for wearing a hijab and people protesting the fact that back in their homeland their 16 year old cousin was just kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam and raped by her new Muslim 'husband', producing automatically Muslim offspring. That happens too, and what is anyone supposed to say if it's 'Islamophobia' to tie it to Islam when the perpetrators themselves do so, by their religion's allowance of both wives and 'what their right hand possesses' (slave girls and war captives, as in Muhammad's example with Maria al-Qibtiya, who was a 'gift' to him from the Egyptian governor Moqawqis)? We didn't make it be this way, yet we can't say anything about it because it's 'racist'?

So that all needs to go away, and Islam needs to be criticized just as every other religion is. It's the only way to defuse the superiority complex that drives terrorism from Muslims (the Qur'an says they are the best people ever created, while non-Muslims like you and me are "the worst of creatures" and destined for hell -- 3:110 and 98:6, respectively).

</rant> (sorry)
 
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Yarddog

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How do you think that Movita Johnson-Harrell would have been treated in Iran?
That doesn't matter to the OP. Of course MS Borowicz would have been arrested and faced possible execution.
 
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FireDragon76

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Because it's not free and open due to this 'Islamophobia' meme/parasite that has infected the brains of the loudest idiots in the political sphere of the West. Redefine that properly (because, yes, Muslims have been and are specifically targeted in some cases purely because they are Muslim; we have seen that) and then we will have the level playing field we must have to show Islamists and Islam the door -- which won't mean Islam will be illegal (again, that's wrong and there won't be a reason for it), but will mean that the Muslims will understand that they are but one part of the multi-religious West, with no hope of taking it over or ruling it no matter what their book, prophet, traditions, or false god have to say about the matter.

Right now, the West is being held hostage by this idea that criticizing Islam or the actions of Muslims is racial hatred towards people (because of course Muslims and only Muslims are poor, oppressed arch-brown people :rolleyes:...Copts, Syriacs, Tewahedo Orthodox, the Christian Dinka and Neur who just fought for something like 50 years for the independence of South Sudan, the mixed Nubian-Coptic population in Sudan and Upper Egypt...none of these people exist), because of course there is such racial hatred as we've seen in NZ and elsewhere. So those who would criticize Islam are now on thin ice, socially and in some places legally (e.g., UK and other places where hurting someone's feelings can land you in jail), but it's still something that must be done.

As someone who worships with actual brown and black people from Africa by choice as often as I possibly can, I see through this equivocation (I learned very early on in my journey to Orthodoxy that you don't ask Coptic people about Islam or its conquest of their country unless you want a very long and very angry diatribe), but I also see why it's there, and it's not because of the informed criticism of the religion and its principles by people who have been oppressed by it for 14 centuries and counting. It's just that the West is full of useful idiots who can't or don't want to tell the difference between someone yelling at a woman in front of them in line at Starbucks for wearing a hijab and people protesting the fact that back in their homeland their 16 year old cousin was just kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam and raped by her new Muslim 'husband', producing automatically Muslim offspring. That happens too, and what is anyone supposed to say if it's 'Islamophobia' to tie it to Islam when the perpetrators themselves do so, by their religion's allowance of both wives and 'what their right hand possesses' (slave girls and war captives, as in Muhammad's example with Maria al-Qibtiya, who was a 'gift' to him from the Egyptian governor Moqawqis)? We didn't make it be this way, yet we can't say anything about it because it's 'racist'?

So that all needs to go away, and Islam needs to be criticized just as every other religion is. It's the only way to defuse the superiority complex that drives terrorism from Muslims (the Qur'an says they are the best people ever created, while non-Muslims like you and me are "the worst of creatures" and destined for hell -- 3:110 and 98:6, respectively).

</rant> (sorry)


I agree that all religions should be regarded critically, but in the current political atmosphere in the US, criticism of certain religions can easily become criticism of actual people, as it is easily conflated with racism and xenophobia. We have a sad history of that in western culture and my own religious tradition must unfortunate bear much of that burden.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Again, no argument from me there, but that doesn't mean all Muslims are proponents of radical political Islam. Most are just regular people trying to live their lives.

One word...Taqiyya
 
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dzheremi

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I agree that all religions should be regarded critically, but in the current political atmosphere in the US, criticism of certain religions can easily become criticism of actual people, as it is easily conflated with racism and xenophobia. We have a sad history of that in western culture and my own religious tradition must unfortunate bear much of that burden.

I totally agree with that.

My point, however, is that the fact that some people are violent idiots who can't distinguish between the religion and the people shouldn't be used to muzzle those who can and do, and have legitimate, non-racist reasons to criticize the religion because of it does to their community and its own ability to live peaceably with its neighbors around the world, which is all we really want to do.

It's like we're stuck in the remedial class when it comes to discussions on Islam, and so everyone needs to go at the pace of the slowest person in the room. No. I reject that. Reasoned criticism of Islam is more necessary now than ever, because the picture westerners are getting of Islam is not realistic, and they will not see the realistic picture unless or until Islam establishes itself as the unquestionable force within their societies, which is something I'd like to not see happen in the first place -- hence, I criticize Islam! And I encourage all others to do the same, making clear distinctions between Muslim people -- who, since they're people just liike you and me, are able to be reasoned with -- and the Islamic religion, which as a theological point is irreformable, since it is already perfect and the only religion that is accepted before God, to quote the inscription on the Dome of the Rock.

Basically, if you can't criticize Islam without turning into a racist moron, that's not my problem. That's your problem (not you, FireDragon76; the general 'you'), and if you get violent about it you should go to jail (where, ironically, some groups will likely try very hard to convert you to Islam...). I'm going to continue to offer criticism from the place from which my people have always done so: historically informed by real-world circumstances, not pie-in-the-sky imaginings of Islam, either positive or negative.
 
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