Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

[Saint Steven]

You're missing the point. Does believing in Him for a better job result in salvation?

No, it results in a better job.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's a winner. You finally boiled it down to the essence.
And what did we find? No doctrine. Imagine that. Good job!

I think you've just nailed the problem here. You have no idea what "doctrine" means.

I've been "boiling it down" to essence from the beginning of our near discussion.

I used the word "aspect". I guess that might have thrown you off some.

But, whatever you want to call it, aspect or essence, saving faith requires 2 things, which I've been clear from the start.

And "doctrine" means teaching.

This is a teaching moment for you. I hope you're taking notes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You're missing the point. Does believing in Him for a better job result in salvation?

No, it results in a better job.

How do you know?

And, btw, the discussion has been about "saving faith". So your answer is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Saint Steven]

The better explanation would be why the requirements for saving faith seem so complicated for you.

Can a person "have faith" if they have no object in which to believe?

Can a person "have faith" if they have no reason, goal or purpose for which to believe?

Or, is all this just too complicated for you to answer?

No, I understand you just fine.

I have been trying to get you to understand the state of mind of the new convert.
THEY KNOW NOTHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing except that they need a change and what you are saying to them resonates on some level. If you told them they needed to stand on their head in the corner, they might do it.

This is the thing that you seem to have completely lost touch with.

Have you ever taken a job to work somewhere and been completely overwhelmed trying to "learn the ropes"? That's what it is like for the new believer coming to Christ. Totally helpless like an infant that needs EVERYTHING done for them.

Would you refuse to feed a baby because they can't explain to you what food is?
Would you refuse to change a diaper because they can't explain how the digestive system works? I hope not.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've been "boiling it down" to essence from the beginning of our near discussion.

Thanks for proving my point. There is hope for you yet. lol

 

[Saint Steven]

the discussion has been about "saving faith". So your answer is irrelevant to the discussion.

No. My answer is very relevant. Try this on for size.
What did the Apostle say was a better basis for faith?
1) Wise and persuasive words. (3 points of doctrine)
2) God's power demonstrated in your life. (like the job you needed)

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

 

[His student]

The Truth of the matter is that Christ taught us to be obedient to The Word. That instruction is impossible to obey without Christ.

Absolutely - no one can even believe the gospel without the presence and work of Christ's Holy Spirit.

Those that Truly try to be obedient fail until Christ moves in to save that soul.

I agree. there are many in this world who claim to be keeping the law and even claim to be Christians. But they have never been born again by the Word of God. As a consequence the supposed house of salvation they are building will eventually fall - even if it never becomes evident until they meet the Lord face to face.

Once that happens, there must come a true understanding of The Fear of The Lord that is the beginning of Knowledge. Also, there comes chastisement and scourging for disobedience to those who have been enlightened. With knowledge comes greater expectations.

Yes - and that understanding from the first spark to complete sanctification and glorification can only be applied by the work of the Holy Spirit who is given to all who have been justified through a simple faith in the basic work of Christ on their behalf at Calvary.

However, all who are saved are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Jesus and The Holy Trinity.

Absolutely.

I have assumed that the OP for this thread was talking about the most basic phase of salvation and not the ongoing phases of what we call sanctification and eventual glorification. (I.e. what it takes to make it to Heaven with God in the end and avoid His eternal judgment and wrath.)

The difference I have with many here in the forum is that their view of salvation makes sanctification by yielding to the work of the Spirit the means to a future justification before God.

Those teachers run the gamut from Adventists with their soul sleep and future investigative judgment of their lives - to Roman Catholics with obedience to various church rituals in order to achieve or keep the justification they obtained through baptism - to Orthodox who don't claim salvation in the basic sense (justification before God) until they have sufficiently yielded to the Spirit - to just generally good works "Christians" who claim no affiliation with any particular group except those who keep a clear conscience and perhaps (if their understanding hasn't gone too far off the rails) a belief that Jesus must be somewhere in that mix.

Of course we know from what the Lord told us that many who have led exemplary lives and even made Him "Lord" of their lives will not be saved in the end because (for all of their good intentions and works) they have never rested in the work of Christ at Calvary as their hope of salvation.

I have no idea for sure where you are coming from. But my gut feeling is that it may be along the lines of Orthodoxy. If that is the case - we have a basic difference concerning what it takes for basic salvation and eternal sealing by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe that you are saved at this minute and stand justified before God based on the work of Christ at Calvary? Do you believe that you have been sealed by His Spirit through that simple faith and will not again come into the condemnation you stood in before Him prior to exercising saving faith?

This whole post may not apply to you. But one should not be naive about these things - we often see people with for what is, for all intents and purposes, different basic religions talking past one another.

IMO - it's good to clear the air of such things right off the bat so that won't happen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, I understand you just fine.

Good to know.

I have been trying to get you to understand the state of mind of the new convert.

The issue is the state of mind of the unbeliever and what they need to know in order to get saved.

THEY KNOW NOTHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing except that they need a change and what you are saying to them resonates on some level. If you told them they needed to stand on their head in the corner, they might do it.

They only "know nothing" until the gospel is presented to them. If it's presented correctly, then they know HOW to be saved.

This is the thing that you seem to have completely lost touch with.

Oh really? How so?

Have you ever taken a job to work somewhere and been completely overwhelmed trying to "learn the ropes"? That's what it is like for the new believer coming to Christ.

I think you remain confused. A "new believer" has ALREADY come to Christ.

Totally helpless like an infant that needs EVERYTHING done for them.

Not hardly.

Would you refuse to feed a baby because they can't explain to you what food is?

This example doesn't even come close to understanding what saving faith is.

Would you refuse to change a diaper because they can't explain how the digestive system works? I hope not.

Ditto.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for proving my point. There is hope for you yet. lol

Maybe you're just finally getting the point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
the discussion has been about "saving faith". So your answer is irrelevant to the discussion.

No. My answer is very relevant. Try this on for size.

What I "try on for size" is also irrelevant to this discussion.

What did the Apostle say was a better basis for faith?
1) Wise and persuasive words. (3 points of doctrine)
2) God's power demonstrated in your life. (like the job you needed)

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

OK, so you don't understand what Paul was saying here.

A faith that rests on 'human wisdom' is a faith IN human wisdom.

A faith that rests on God's power is saving faith, for it is God who saves, not our act of believing.

And, as I've explained, color coded no less, is that saving faith has an object to believe IN, and a goal or purpose for having that faith, in Acts 16:31; Paul's answer to the jailer about what he MUST DO to be saved.

And you ignored all of it.

Was it that you didn't understand the color coding and/or explanation?

Or was it that you just don't accept it?

I have asked several times for your explanation of what saving faith is. I'm still waiting.

Or, should I just forget expecting an explanation?

 

[Saint Steven]

I have asked several times for your explanation of what saving faith is. I'm still waiting.

In the Bible, there is only "faith", no such thing as "saving faith".
I think you are just trying to "save face". (saving faith with a lisp)

This is right up there with posters that write about "true" Christians.
As opposed to what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

In the Bible, there is only "faith", no such thing as "saving faith".

No, there are all kinds of "faith". iow, all kinds of objects of faith, for all kinds of reasons.

Are you going to suggest that every one of these kinds of faith will get a person into heaven?

I think you are just trying to "save face". (saving faith with a lisp)

Though cute, nothing else.

Seems to me you're just trying to dodge the issue. And you still haven't acknowledged my color coded explanation of Acts 16:31 as saving faith.

This is right up there with posters that write about "true" Christians.
As opposed to what?

Seriously? Never heard (or read about) "false brothers"? Specifically mentioned in 2 Cor 11:26 and Gal 2:4.

A false brother is a false Christian. iow, in name only. They are liars. They claim to be a Christian, but aren't.

Those who read the Bible have read about them.

 

[Saint Steven]

Are you aware that you've done nothing to demonstrate anything more simple?

The question is: Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?
My answer is "No." The contents of "No" are zero in number.
Therefore "nothing" is the correct response.

Why would you be surprised by this?
Or feel that I have not participated in the discussion?

The example in the OP was the thief on the cross.
No doctrine necessary = salvation.

Anything you want to add to that just muddies the water.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The question is: Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?
My answer is "No." The contents of "No" are zero in number.
Therefore "nothing" is the correct response.

No, that is merely your opinion.

Why would you be surprised by this?
Or feel that I have not participated in the discussion?

You have ignored my request to explain what saving faith is.

The example in the OP was the thief on the cross.
No doctrine necessary = salvation.

He knew plenty. No doubt he had either seen or heard about plenty of miracles that Jesus performed.

He knew that Jesus was King and going to His kingdom.

Don't kid yourself.

Anything you want to add to that just muddies the water.

How is Acts 16:31 so difficult to grasp? It contains both aspects of saving faith:
1. the object is the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, who died on the cross for all sins.
2. the goal or purpose of faith in Christ is salvation.

Boom.

No mud. No mess. Just the facts.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, that is merely your opinion.

Are you claiming your opinion is of more value than mine?

You have ignored my request to explain what saving faith is.

I told you there is no such thing. What is to explain?

He knew plenty. No doubt he had either seen or heard about plenty of miracles that Jesus performed.

He knew that Jesus was King and going to His kingdom.

Don't kid yourself.

Was this in your three points list? Or just added and unnecessary complication.

How is Acts 16:31 so difficult to grasp? It contains both aspects of saving faith:
1. the object is the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, who died on the cross for all sins.
2. the goal or purpose of faith in Christ is salvation.

Boom.

No mud. No mess. Just the facts.

That's fine. A person who is leading someone to Christ might find it useful.

Do you withhold salvation from those who fail your doctrinal "saving faith" test?
Maybe you enjoy making people jump through hoops for you. ​

 

[The Righterzpen]

I said this:
"Well, you blew that one! You've equated people with microwave ovens.

I'm going to make this easy for you to grasp. I'm going to color code the verse.

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The red words refer to believers (our sins).

The blue words refer to unbelievers (whole world).

You're welcome!

I recommend that you consult with a lexicon."

What's wrong with my color coded explanation of the verse that you totally mischaracterized?

Instead of throwing ad hominems, please try to actually engage other posters with something helpful, or at least try to communicate.

If there is anything incorrect with my color coded explanation of 1 John 2:2, please explain.

You don't read the entirety of what someone is saying. You take things out of context. Are you doing that on purpose, or do you have an issue that you can not help yourself?

Having a conversation with someone who cherry picks what you say - is like trying to nail down Jello.

Are you doing this on purpose?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you claiming your opinion is of more value than mine?

I back up my views from Scripture.

[I told you there is no such thing. What is to explain?

Another opinion.

Do you withhold salvation from those who fail your doctrinal "saving faith" test?

Not in my hands. Totally in God's hands. And you know what? He is the One who came up with the plan for the salvation of mankind. And it's called "saving faith".

Not "saving works", or any other nutty idea. One is saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Are you actually disagreeing with this??

Maybe you enjoy making people jump through hoops for you.

​

So, who has been jumping through hoops from any of my posts?

Why do you think I have that much power over others?

And, once again, you have failed to provide any explanation of your view of how someone gets saved.

If you are a biblically based believer, are you just embarrassed to admit that you yourself agree that a person must put their faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, and that He died for their sins, and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

Or, do you have some other idea about how a person gets saved?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You don't read the entirety of what someone is saying. You take things out of context. Are you doing that on purpose, or do you have an issue that you can not help yourself?

Having a conversation with someone who cherry picks what you say - is like trying to nail down Jello.

Are you doing this on purpose?

What in the world are you rattling on about?

Rather than just throw empty charges at others, how about providing some actual evidence to back up your charge?

What have I taken out of context? My response to the example about microwave ovens was accurate. The example failed. As I showed.

What I do "on purpose" is to address the errors in posts. That's not cherry picking; it's addressing errors.

But, I'm willing to examine all your evidence.

 

[Saint Steven]

I back up my views from Scripture.

Oh, your personal opinions have authority over mine?
A vain attempt to trump my opinion with your own by playing the God card. ​

Not in my hands. Totally in God's hands. And you know what? He is the One who came up with the plan for the salvation of mankind. And it's called "saving faith".

Not "saving works", or any other nutty idea. One is saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Are you actually disagreeing with this??​

​

Maybe you should leave it in God's hands then. Instead of making up all sorts of your own "rules" that people have to comply with to be saved. As if the doctrine is magic words for the salvation incantation.

So, who has been jumping through hoops from any of my posts?

Why do you think I have that much power over others?

And, once again, you have failed to provide any explanation of your view of how someone gets saved.

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

If you are a biblically based believer, are you just embarrassed to admit that you yourself agree that a person must put their faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, and that He died for their sins, and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

Or, do you have some other idea about how a person gets saved?

You are over-reacting to my questions and statements. ​

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I back up my views from Scripture."

Oh, your personal opinions have authority over mine?​

Well, one thing seems clear; you don't read my posts.

A vain attempt to trump my opinion with your own by playing the God card.

Since the "God card" really means Scripture, then YES, I have trumped your opinion.
​

Maybe you should leave it in God's hands then.

Why would you or anyone else think that I haven't? Seems you love to opine a lot.

Instead of making up all sorts of your own "rules" that people have to comply with to be saved.

The example I gave was of Paul telling the jailer what he MUST DO to be saved. Just how many "rules" did Paul give the jailer?

As if the doctrine is magic words for the salvation incantation.

So now your opinions or fantasies have move to incantations, huh.

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

Not nearly as much as you've demonstrated.

You are over-reacting to my questions and statements.

​

Well, that's an interesting dodge.

What seems more obvious is that you are engaging in "projection", whereby you charge someone else with your own actions.