The Pastor King (New)

[ace of hearts]

If a pastor passes away, or becomes seriously ill so that he can't perform his duties in the Church, it can often take a little while to get a replacement in place.

Pretty valid reasons.

 

[truefiction1]

Where do you get this information?

certain people who lived around the time of the early followers of Christ (such as Ananias) and were acquainted with them and their work in the Gospel, recorded this information about them in writing. These ancient Christian writings still exist and provide us with information about many of the early members of Christ's holy Church, from the times of the 12 Apostles and down through all the centuries, right up until now.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I agree with much of what you've been saying, however I don't accept the idea that an elder is appointed as such by God.

If you look at the word "elder", it merely refers to a mature older person, male or female. This can be seen here.-
1Tim5v1Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
As can be seen, the word elder is juxtaposed against elder women, younger brothers and younger sisters. ie. its about family relationships and has nothing to do with an appointed position.

The world was a patriarchal society, and nobody would have challenged the idea that the head of the house was the father (and grandfather above him).
That's why Paul warns Timothy about showing respect to these family members in the right order.
Immediately previous to that verse, Paul tells Timothy v12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. ie. Don't expect anyone to listen just because you are a friend of Paul, but prove it in how you live among them. Only then will people give him credence, and despite his youth, look on him like they do their older and more mature members (elders).

The problem with appointing certain people to a position of eldership, is that all God given authority ends up being stripped from the remaining older members. And as we see in most churches, most end watching powerless from the sidelines.
In complete contrast, if all older members were expected to take up their spiritual responsibility in the assembly, instead of one man bands, we would have vibrant gifts led meetings.

Hello and God bless,

The elders/overseers that I am speaking of here are in the church, Who have been proven to be in this role. We read of ordaining elders in every church. These are mature men who the Holy Ghost makes overseers (Acts 20). They are not just the older men. They are more skillful in the word of righteousness than babes and they are apt to teach. Just having an older man in the meeting does not qualify him for this function and oversight. Some older men may have just been saved and are babes in Christ. The elders (plural) ordained in every church (singular) are elders in the faith, they may even be younger than some older men in the gatherings.

What elders do and do not do is another good discussion. They are not to lord over the flock or have dominion over others.but they are to care for and feed others and convince the gsinsayers with sound doctrine etc. And even though there are these elders who are more skillful in the word of righteousness than a babe, all the body can still function and edify each other in Christ.

We see an example of elders that were not in the church trying to stop the believers from following God and the believers told them they would follow God regardless. This shows elders of men in Israel (non believers) are not refering to the elders in the church.

Acts 4:5,8,18-20 “And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,... 8. Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,... 18. And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. 20. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”

We also read of elders in the church or in the faith being ordained

Acts 14:23. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”

“elders” in the church, the Holy Ghost called and made oversees, they must also meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3. Not all older men do simply because they are older.

Acts 20:17,21 “And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church...28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”

Also, authority flows from Christ through all the body, not just elders. Onltvas men speak and live in the word of God is there authority. Authority is not static in a position but fluid in the body through Christ, a spiritual and moral authority in the life.

 

[LoveofTruth]

.

 

[Francis Drake]

The elders/overseers that I am speaking of here are in the church,

I'm talking about the church, which is clearly based on Godly families. ​

Who have been proven to be in this role. We read of ordaining elders in every church.​

But scripture is not talking of people being ordained into eldership, but some being ordained from eldership.
It is elder members alone, not younger people who should be ordained into the various roles of the church.

These are mature men who the Holy Ghost makes overseers (Acts 20). They are not just the older men.

And they should certainly not be younger men.
Nobody should be ordained to any role in the church unless they are elders.

They are more skillful in the word of righteousness than babes and they are apt to teach. Just having an older man in the meeting does not qualify him for this function and oversight.

I never spoke about oversight. Just being an elder doesn't give anyone power other than over his own children.

You are still viewing the church as an organisation with officers. I am viewing it as the body of Christ, an organism. ​

Favouring certain people with the title "elder", hijacks the calling of all mature members of the flock, relegating them to passivity.

Some older men may have just been saved and are babes in Christ. The elders (plural) ordained in every church (singular) are elders in the faith, they may even be younger than some older men in the gatherings.

Of course some elder men are babes in Christ, but they are still elders, just not ready for responsibility outside their own children.
I reiterate, ordaining people into eldership is completely unscriptural. You are either an elder, or younger. (I will get to Titus shortly)

Take note that Timothy was never ordained as an elder, despite being the most likely candidate, but was instructed to revere all elders as fathers and mothers!
1Tim5v1Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
As proved here, eldership is not an office of the church, but a status gained with years.
All roles within the church must only be taken from these people, not younger members.

Similarly here's what Peter said.-
1I exhort the elders among you, a fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory being about to be revealed:
The organisational church presumes these are the church officers, but here's what he said a few verses later.-
5Likewise, younger ones, be subject to your elders. And all, gird on humility one to another, because, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
As you see, eldership parallels family relationships where elders are respected.

It is man's graceless pride that has turned the organic body of Christ into an organisation with appointed officers.

What elders do and do not do is another good discussion. They are not to lord over the flock or have dominion over others.but they are to care for and feed others and convince the gsinsayers with sound doctrine etc. And even though there are these elders who are more skillful in the word of righteousness than a babe, all the body can still function and edify each other in Christ.

All of this was never meant to be the job of your titled people. It is the job of every mature member of the flock.

We see an example of elders that were not in the church trying to stop the believers from following God and the believers told them they would follow God regardless. This shows elders of men in Israel (non believers) are not refering to the elders in the church.

This is a straw man argument. Of course there were elders of Israel who tried to destroy the church, this has always been the case, and always will be.
2Acts20v29I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, 30and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.
You should of course realise that the more you make people dependent on certain specially ordained men, the more easily they will be led astray.
In contrast, when all the mature men are actively participating, instead of watching the titled elders doing church for them, then the chances of being led astray is significantly reduced.

We also read of elders in the church or in the faith being ordained

Acts 14:23. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”

Again, you have to understand that in that society, they would never ever have ordained youngsters to any position of authority in the community or church. Scripture makes that clear also.
Therefore this verse is simply about ordaining people from the local mature eldership to become overseers of God's work. Like most people, you are projecting a modernist world view on the ancient world.

“elders” in the church, the Holy Ghost called and made oversees, they must also meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3. Not all older men do simply because they are older.

Of course it should be God who raises men to overseership, I never claimed otherwise. But God never raises anyone to eldership.

My beef is that when you ordain anyone to eldership, you undermine the spiritual responsibility of everyone else. Your man made structures leave the church incredibly weak.

 

[Francis Drake]

Hello and God bless,

The elders/overseers that I am speaking of here are in the church, Who have been proven to be in this role. We read of ordaining elders in every church. These are mature men who the Holy Ghost makes overseers (Acts 20).

Probably the best proof people use to claim that elders must be ordained is this verse.-
Titus1v5On account of this I left you in Crete, that you might set in order the things lacking and might appoint elders in every town, as I directed you,

But there's a catch.
Paul goes on to describe the type of person Titus should choose.-
6if anyone is blameless, the husband of one wife, having believing children, not under accusation of debauchery, or insubordinate.
Contrary to many churches, he cannot be a single man, but must be married with god fearing children. ie. he must already be an elder.

Paul continues with his character references.
7For an overseer must be blameless, as God’s steward; not self-willed, not quick tempered, not given to wine, not a striker, not greedy of base gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined; 9holding to the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to convict those contradicting it.
But did you see that word at the beginning of verse7? "For an overseer...………"
So which is it, is Paul describing an elder or an overseer?
Putting aside all prejudgments, the answer can only be Paul is describing an overseer, to be ordained from the mixed pool of eldership.

Let me draw a parallel here.
Suppose the "eldership" of a community church is led to start a children's ministry in the town. They send a request that all the local churches pray and ordain women for that ministry.

Would anyone seriously imagine the chosen people are getting ordained to become women?
Of course not, such thinking is silly as they are already women.
Its just that women are the only ones being considered for that ministry.

Likewise for the roles in the church, those considered must be elders already. And they are then ordained to become overseers etc.

Any other conclusion is foolish, undermining the scriptures and undermining the church.

 

[ace of hearts]

Holy Apostle Barnabas of the Seventy was born on the island of Cyprus into the family of the tribe of Levi, and he was named Joseph. He received his education at Jerusalem, being raised with his friend and fellow student Saul (the future Apostle Paul) under the renowned teacher of the Law, Gamaliel. Joseph was pious, he frequented the Temple, he strictly observed the fasts and avoided youthful distractions. During this time period our Lord Jesus Christ began His public ministry. Seeing the Lord and hearing His Divine Words, Joseph believed in Him as the Messiah. Filled with ardent love for the Savior, he followed Him. The Lord chose him to be one of His Seventy Apostles. The other Apostles called him Barnabas, which means “son of consolation.” After the Ascension of the Lord to Heaven, Barnabas sold land belonging to him near Jerusalem and he brought the money to the feet of the Apostles, leaving nothing for himself (Acts 4:36-37).

When Saul arrived in Jerusalem after his conversion and sought to join the followers of Christ, everyone there was afraid of him since he had persecuted the Church only a short while before. Barnabas, however, came with him to the Apostles and reported how the Lord had appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:26-28).

Saint Barnabas went to Antioch to encourage the believers, “Having come and having seen the grace of God, he rejoiced and he urged all to cleave to the Lord with sincerity of heart” (Acts 11:23). Then he went to Tarsus, and brought the Apostle Paul to Antioch, where for about a year they taught the people. It was here that the disciples first began to be called Christians (Acts 11:26). With the onset of famine, and taking along generous alms, Paul and Barnabas returned to Jerusalem. When King Herod killed Saint James the son of Zebedee, and had the Apostle Peter put under guard in prison to please the Jews, Saints Barnabas and Paul and Peter were led out of the prison by an angel of the Lord.

They hid out at the house of Barnabas’ aunt Maria. Later, when the persecution had quieted down, they returned to Antioch, taking with them Maria’s son John, surnamed Mark. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the prophets and teachers there imposed hands upon Barnabas and Paul, and sent them off to do the work to which the Lord had called them (Acts 13:2-3). Arriving in Seleucia, they sailed off to Cyprus and in the city of Salamis they preached the Word of God in the Jewish synagogues.

On Paphos they came across a sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, who was close with the proconsul Sergius. Wishing to hear the Word of God, the proconsul invited the saints to come to him. The sorcerer attempted to sway the proconsul from the Faith, but the Apostle Paul denounced the sorcerer, who through his words suddenly fell blind. The proconsul believed in Christ (Acts 13:6-12).

From Paphos Barnabas and Paul set sail for Pergamum of Pamphylia, and then they preached to the Jews and the Gentiles at Pisidian Antioch and throughout all that region. The Jews rioted and expelled Paul and Barnabas. The saints arrived in Iconium, but learning that the Jews wanted to stone them, they withdrew to Lystra and Derben. There the Apostle Paul healed a man, crippled in the legs from birth. The people assumed them to be the gods Zeus and Hermes and wanted to offer them sacrifice. The saints just barely persuaded them not to do this (Acts 14:8-18).

When the question arose whether those converted from the Gentiles should accept circumcision, Barnabas and Paul went to Jerusalem. There they were warmly received by the Apostles and elders. The preachers related “what God had wrought with them and how He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles” (Acts 14:27).

After long deliberations the Apostles collectively resolved not to impose any sort of burden upon Gentile Christians except what was necessary: to refrain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood (Acts 15:19-20). Letters were sent with Barnabas and Paul, and they again preached at Antioch, and after a certain while they decided to visit the other cities where they had visited earlier. Saint Barnabas wanted to take Mark along with him, but Saint Paul did not want to, since earlier he had left them. A quarrel arose, and they separated. Paul took Silas with him and went to Syria and Cilicia, while Barnabas took Mark with him to Cyprus (Acts 15:36-41).

Having multiplied the number of believers, Saint Barnabas traveled to Rome, where he was perhaps the first to preach Christ.

Saint Barnabas founded the episcopal see at Mediolanum (now Milan), and upon his return to Cyprus he continued to preach about Christ the Savior. Then the enraged Jews incited the pagans against Barnabas, and they led him out beyond the city and stoned him, and then built a fire to burn the body. Later on, having come upon this spot, Mark took up the unharmed body of Saint Barnabas and buried it in a cave, placing upon the saint’s bosom, in accord with his final wishes, the Gospel of Matthew which he had copied in his own hand.

Saint Barnabas died in about the year 62, at age seventy-six. In time, the burial spot was forgotten, but numerous signs took place at this spot. In the year 448, during the time of the emperor Zeno, Saint Barnabas appeared three times in a dream to Archbishop Anthimus of Cyprus and indicated the place where his relics were buried. Starting to dig at the indicated spot, Christians found the incorrupt body of the saint, and upon his chest was the Holy Gospel.

It was during this time that the Church of Cyprus began to be regarded as Apostolic in origin, and received the right of choosing its head. Thus Saint Barnabas defended Cyprus against the pretensions of the opponent of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, the heretic surnamed Knapheios, who had usurped the patriarchal throne at Antioch and tried to gain dominion over the Church of Cyprus.

I just don't find this in Scripture.

 

[ace of hearts]

It is a similar thing to your entire religious form that was simply copied from the traditions of men way back that fight against Gid’s Order in scripture.

I think his moniker says a lot.

 

[ace of hearts]

Everyone probably wore robes in the New testament Church. Pants weren't in style at that time. Robes are still used in the Church because they are the metaphorical language of Scripture (Isaiah 61:10) (Psalms 93:1) "But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes..." (Acts 14:14)

The early New Testament Church kept much of the customary clothing and worship characteristic of Jewish temple worship. The Orthodox Church still does.

Yeah everyone wore decorated robes and stoles. I think James says something about this showing this isn't the case. I'm not trying to promote contemporary dress codes or styles.

 

[ace of hearts]

FYI: God alone is adored and bowed before. The icons only reveal the glory of God pointed to in the imagery of them. The glory of God in Heaven is bowed before in spirit and in body. The bowing is before the Glory of God Who is everywhere and filling all things, in adoration and in contrite repentance and in true humility that is the gift of the Holy Spirit. The worship of a wooden object is strictly forbidden to the children of God. It's not in our nature to worship creation. This is not what we do.

I really see no difference in pictures (Icons).

 

[Bobber]

I think there's a growing displeasure in the way things are. I see home groups more and more. I agree about the 2-3 gathered in the name of Jesus.

I'd love to see a home church concept take hold if for no other reason than to see the feeling of freedom people can have knowing they don't have to concern themselves with the paying of buildings and maintaining them of what we call churches. To see whatever offerings are given go directly and I mean directly to helping the poor or to go to ministers and I mean the ones scripturally qualified to be supported I think would be a joy. I guess we just need to pray for Christians everywhere to see a better way.

 

[Bobber]

I was thinking about this and it must have also been very hard for the Jews to let go of thier whole old covenant temple, sacrifices, and the entire religious understanding also. Similarly many Roman Catholics would have found it hard to leave thier religious forms and order to walk i the light God was shining to them.

It must be equally hard for the other religions when they become Christians having been brought up in thier ien cultures and erroneous doctrines and ways for centuries.

But the truth will make us free

We must walk in the truth God shows and the light he shines upon our path.

It probably would be that for a home church concept to arise the one who spearheaded such a move would be looked upon as extreme. Two generations later they'd be thought of as orthodox.

 

[LoveofTruth]

But scripture is not talking of people being ordained into eldership, but some being ordained from eldership.

Hello again,

I'm not sure what your talking about here exactly. An elder in the church is different than a elder in the world. The elders in the church are mature believers not just older men.

When Paul says to ordain elders in every church and another place to ordain elders in every city. These elders are overseers in the gatherings. But they are not to lord over. They are more mature men who feed the flock and care for others, exort the gainsayers with sound doctrine , lay hands on the sick etc. They may also have many different gifts. Some may be apostles as peter was (1 Peter 5) and still considered elders. But peter tells the elders to take the oversight. and feed. This does not mean that all the body cannot still minister to each other as they receive the gifts. they can, as Peter said in 1 peter 4:10,11, but the leaders are for certain functions in the body.

Consider, if there is a gathering in a home and we see perhaps 4 old men in the gathering and 7 middle aged men and yet with the 7 middle aged men among them there are 3 that are mature believers who have been saved and growing in the Lord for 15 years or so and the 4 older men just got saved last week. There is no way that the older men should be in oversight in the gatherings or ordained elders in the church. the 3 three middle aged men who meet the qualifictions of 1 Timothy and who are made overseers by the Holy Ghost can be ordained as elders. This is for many reasons. Some of which are to feed the flock to watch over, to convince the gainsayers with sound doctrine, to teach and many other good works in Christ. A true elder/overseer, is not to Lord over but watch over. Paul said we do not have dominion over your faith.

But the younger men would be elders in that situation in the church even if they were not as old as the new born believers who were older men.

Yet still honour should be given to the older men as older men, this is still right.

For example a gathering might have many younger men who have been believers for many years and then one of them sees their father get saved and come into the meeting. The father is not to take oversight and teach and feed the flock right away, though he can still minister as he is led. But the younger men and his son will still honour him.

It would be unwise to ordain him as an elder right away

In fact Paul left some churches without any elder/oversight for a long while and then went back to those churches later , to ordain elders. Elders take time to mature and as they use their gifts and mature they will be known in the gatherings and proven.

But I am by no means setting up one man as an elder over the gathering, Always we see a plurality of elder/overseers. Elder/Overseers in the church who are ordained are the same people as scripture shows.

Also an elder may be in a apostle gift or teacher, evangelist, prophet or pastor. They are not just in the pastor gift.

It is elder members alone, not younger people who should be ordained into the various roles of the church.

Paul told Timothy to let no man despise his youth, Timothy was a younger man and an apostle worker, and yet he was young.

The elders in the faith are more mature believers in the faith who have been growing and exercising their spiritual senses and who are able to teach and who are called to such oversight by God.

And they should certainly not be younger men.

It depends on what age we would put to "younger men".

They should not take oversight if they are a novice. Paul does not speak of a specific age, to add that to his words would create a hindrance to those who are called and mature in the faith regardless of their age.

For example suppose a gathering has come together in a home and they are all younger people none over the age of 26. Yet a few of the mature brethren who have been believers for a many years are know as they minister and feed others and their gifts are obvious to all. They can be ordained as elder/overseers. Even if they are young men.

Nobody should be ordained to any role in the church unless they are elders.

The scripture doesn't word it like this. It says "ordain elders in every church" and "ordain elders in every city". The elders ( mature brothers in the faith) are ordained.

Also Timothy had others lay hands on him and he was an apostle and Paul told him to let no man despise his youth. He was more mature than many older men and more gifted.

Also God gives gifts to the church such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers and we read nothing of an age limit here.

The early apostles were younger men when Jesus called them.

I never spoke about oversight. Just being an elder doesn't give anyone power other than over his own children.

I do not speak of any having "power" or authority over others. The power and authority is God as he works in all believers , as they speak and live in the word of God. This is fluid flowing from Christ the head ( Ephesians 4:15,16), not in a static position as the world and many churches have today.

When I speak of elders in the church that are ordained I am speaking of elder/Overseers. We see this connection in scripture

"5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:...7 For a bishop [overseer] must be..."

Here we see that elders are overseer in the church in this sense. He is not just referring to older men. They are older n the faith and that is who they are their function is to oversee and they may have various gifts.


"17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church....28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."(Acts 20:17,28)

Here we see that elders are made overseers by the Holy Ghost with certain functions. This does not stop the body from functioning and using all their gifts as well. It is there as a safety. In the multitude of cousel there is safety.

also

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."(1 Peter 5:1-3)

You are still viewing the church as an organisation with officers. I am viewing it as the body of Christ, an organism.

No, I see the body of Christ as a living organism where Christ works in every part as the head. But each part has a function and office as scripture says.
​

"3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."(Romans 12:3-5)

Some offices are different, (not that any should think of themselves as more highly than they ought and not to exalt men over others).

"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."(1 Timothy 3:1)

The word "office" relates to function or practice, not a office as the world uses it.

There is no way around the order of elder/overseers ordains and called by God for the body. This is seen in 1 Timothy 3, Titus, Acts, James, 1 Peter, etc This is far different than the one man pastor role we see today and the role that elders have under him today. The elders in many gathering are said to be the supportive arm of the pastor. But this is not biblical.

In a gathering that has been functioning for a while there may come in some heretics and other false teachers, some from the circumcision groups or other strange teachings. The weaker brothers and sisters will often be tossed about by these men and their windy doctrines. God set some in the church to address this and help the body.
Many baby chiristians will be trouble by a false teacher and look to the more proven, consistant, mature brothers who have spoke the word of God to them. They will look to them to help them and to exhort and convince the gainsayers with sound doctrine. This is one of the functions and protections in the body. This is a good thing if all have the same care one for another. it becomes a bad thing if they go off the route of the false apostles in 2 Cor 11, where they exalted themselves and devoured the flock and took of them and brought them into bondage and smote them on the face.

​

Favouring certain people with the title "elder", hijacks the calling of all mature members of the flock, relegating them to passivity.

I do not see any tiltles given to men, an elder is who they are , a mature brother in Christ, they are not just elders in the world. We do not give flattering titles unto men as scripture warns.

Just as we do not call a man "Pastor Bob". Bob may have a pastor gift, but it is not so much a title. For example a teacher, teaches. That is a description of their function

Of course some elder men are babes in Christ, but they are still elders, just not ready for responsibility outside their own children

They are not elders in the faith. Though they may be elders in their role in a family in the flesh.

I reiterate, ordaining people into eldership is completely unscriptural. You are either an elder, or younger.

There are scriptures that have been shown show here that show to ordain elders. These elders are also /overseers in the church. There no age restriction or specification here.

Like I said, in a gathering with the older man about 26 years old and where many young people an families meet in a home, can still have elders there.

But lets suppose this home meeting has been going on for about 3 years and many of the young men have been believers for over ten years and there were three elder/overseers ordained in that gathering and the body was edifying itself where all supply for years. then a few very old men came in the meetings who just got saved. These older men are not the elders in the faith there, the younger men would be.

Does that make sense.

When I speak of elder/overseer in the church I am talking about older men in the faith, what age they might b is not the issue. They should simply not be novices.

There are elders in the faith and elders in the physical. Both as christians should be honoured.

The younger in the faith should honour the older in the faith and yet all should be clothed with humility.

If a very old man comes into that gathering of many people and families and all are under 26 and they have been in the faith for a long time. He should also be humble to recognize the work and gift of God in the body and to those who have already been ordained as elder/overseers in the gathering he should also know and hear and not to simply think he can speak with greater weight than they because he is a older man, but young in the faith.

My beef is that when you ordain anyone to eldership, you undermine the spiritual responsibility of everyone else. Your man made structures leave the church incredibly weak.

No, we see clearly verses that say to "ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:...7 For a bishop [overseer] must be..." and "ordain elders in every city and to call for the elders of the church etc. These elders were made overseers by the Holy Ghost. They, as all other believers are commended to God and to the word of His grace which is able to build them up.

But God works in every believer to will and to do and to make them perfect unto all good works. God gets the glory in the church not man.

No man should exalt himself over others. Elders help the younger and they do not have a title or some power over others in some static role. But their power only flows as they are in Christ and he works effectually in them as he does in all.

I do not create man made structures.

Some would have a gathering forever with no elder/overseers ordained and so they would fight against the command and order as shown in scripture. There are many patterns of this function in the body in scripture.

elders are made overseers by God not by man.

"over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,"

 

[LoveofTruth]

Contrary to many churches, he cannot be a single man, but must be married with god fearing children. ie. he must already be an elder.

He may have been a christian for 10 years and have a family and kids and only be 26 years old and still be an elder. Then if there were a few of these elder/overseers in the gathering and five very old new believers came in the gathering, these older men would not be fit in the 1 Timothy function right away. they are novices and not elders in the faith.

and the family situation is the best one, but in some gatherings you may have 35 single men and women and all under the age of 28. Do you say that they can never have elders in that church ?

 

[ace of hearts]

The ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church IS that which is espoused in the Scriptures. It is the same Church and of the same Christological and Pneumatological conciliar ecclesiology, and governed with the same principles and recipes that Viola identifies in "Who Is Your Covering". What Viola fails to understand is that even with such an ecclesiology there will always be failures of some people who are members and even leaders in the Church to truly live according to the tenants of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

Take Arius of Alexandria, for example: The Orthodox Christian presbyter and ascetic who in the 4th century began to teach, against Church Tradition, that Jesus Christ is Son of God in name only, because He is not without beginning, as God the Father is, but rather, is the first created being that the Father made. Christ, according to Arius, does not share in the Divinity of God. The Father alone is God.

This teaching, that questioned the Divinity of Christ, became the source of the greatest Theological controversy and uproar that the Church had ever suffered in Her 300+ years. A council of the Church was convened to settle the dispute. Many bishops, priests, deacons, and lay ministers attended, and the council denounced the teaching and the person of Arius and all who taught as he did about Christ. The council defined the Divine nature of Christ and His relationship to the Father.

Still, the controversy raged on for many decades after. The Arian teaching about Christ lingered and possessed the minds of many Christians. We see that the denial of Christ's Divinity has been done many times throughout history since the dawn of the Church. Most claim that the Christian Isaac Newton (famous physicist) did not believe in the Trinity. Present day Christian cults like Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity. I have encountered Christians right here in Christian Forums who don't believe in the Trinity. Then there are Christians who commit grave sins against God and others: Abuse of all kinds against people and even torture, rape, and murder. These grave deeds are done by people physically present in the Church as members whether lay people or bishops, priests, deacons, or whatever. No body of religious followers is immune from succumbing, at least in part, to the evils of fallen humanity. Christ Himself taught this about the Church, in His parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:25).

Your "house churches" are not immune to these problems either. Your own religious body will suffer the same fate sooner or later. Some members will become disillusioned with the group because of the flaws or lack of spiritual integrity on the part of its leaders and members. they will become critical and judge those around them in the group as not living according to New Testament standards, and they will leave and form their own groups. This happens and will continue to happen because the enemy is relentless and the sinful nature of Christians that is hidden behind the "log in their own eye" is a powerful factor of influence in the Church. I have already told you of your own victimization by the enemy, because of the "log in your own eye". The goal of the enemy is to "invalidate" the Gospel by invalidating the Church in the eyes of as many as they can. Getting Church people, especially Church leaders, to commit grave sins comes is one form of attack, getting others to leave the Orthodox Church on account of disputes over Who God is and what the Gospel is, is another. If the overall picture of Christianity is chaotic and ugly, the enemy is pleased, because he knows that more and more people will reject the Gospel on account of that picture. Your beliefs about the ancient Orthodox Church -- planted by God's enemy -- are only helping to make the picture more grotesque. But that's not all. The enemy is able to prevent you from becoming a "partaker of the Divine nature" by keeping you separated from certain truths that you need to learn. That Truth is in the Life of the Church. That Life is of the Holy Spirit, the Son, and the Father.

I don't see the promotion here by others to forsake traditional religious assembly. For me and others the opportunity to grow in Jesus and aide others isn't present in the traditional religious assembly. Often times it is taken to be opposition to the leaders and squelched if not disfellowshiped in one way or anther. In which case there's absolutely no reason to attend.

 

[ace of hearts]

You seem to focus on churches as needing to be perfect institutions, as if somehow an imperfect church inhibits the Gospel being preached. It doesn't. Unworthy ministers can preach the Gospel, because the power of the Gospel is in the Gospel itself, not in the minister.

I don't think this is the case. I think you see someone trying to destroy the Church. Traditional organized religious activities nearly cost me my soul because what was being practiced and promoted didn't work in my life. I was very distracted by their focus and its affect. I realized I was being played for the benefit of a few individual people in positions of authority. I was involved in the hierarchy in a personal relationship type of way as well as organizational. Suddenly I drew attention from others (social climbers) simply because of my involvement.

 

[ace of hearts]

Orthodox pastors have been arrested for being leaders in the Church, they have been subject to great physical and mental hardships, have been exiled to frozen prison labor camps as laborers, have become riddled with painful afflictions and illnesses as a result, they have been starved, strangled, had their eyes gouged out, their tongues cut out, had their fingers, toes, hands and feet cut off, have been skinned and burned alive, and have endured all manner of the most cruel forms of torture and been murdered for being "servants" in the Church.

How come your "king pastor" story doesn't recount any of these things about Orthodox Christian pastors? Is it because you've never been aware of the True Faith of these pastors, who are too numerable to list here?

There's no denial that some from your church have suffered wrongly for their beliefs. My question is did they suffer because of Jesus or affiliation with your church. You make it more because of their affiliation with your church than a relationship with Jesus. Indeed many have suffered from various organizations even by them for the cause of Jesus Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Orthodox pastors have been arrested for being leaders in the Church, they have been subject to great physical and mental hardships, have been exiled to frozen prison labor camps as laborers, have become riddled with painful afflictions and illnesses as a result, they have been starved, strangled, had their eyes gouged out, their tongues cut out, had their fingers, toes, hands and feet cut off, have been skinned and burned alive, and have endured all manner of the most cruel forms of torture and been murdered for being "servants" in the Church.

How come your "king pastor" story doesn't recount any of these things about Orthodox Christian pastors? Is it because you've never been aware of the True Faith of these pastors, who are too numerable to list here?

I am not speaking of men's personal faith and the suffering they go through. I speak only of the body ministry and the plurality of oversight.

I believe I did say in this initial post

"Though there are blessed pastor giftings in the body of Christ, (just as there are apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers), the modern role of the exalted “Pastor” over all does not exist biblically and is a dangerous distortion spiritually to the church. Many of those in this unbiblical role may be true believers and loving men with sincerity and have many good qualities, Others may be seeking their own glory and reputation. But either way they are still in error in this exalted role and they still hinder the body from functioning in Christ.

Despite the confusion of many religious forms today and the multitude of believers who gather in them, with the exalted Pastor over all, their various spiritual moments, evangelistic aspects and some good ministration seen in many of these gatherings, there is still a great problem in the churches and it must be corrected and set in God’s order."

I am saddened by the way many believers and those called "pastors" have been treated in the past, I am by no means saying things against them specifically.

 

[ace of hearts]

The role the modern pastor, priest, clergy, Bishop etc. takes over all is an exalted role and unbiblical. Just read some of the man made constitutional by-laws and see who the entire ministry is. Its this one man called the "pastor" or "priest". I posted some things about this already.

Plurality of elders in every church is the biblical order and model we see in scripture, never a one man pastor over all in the New Testament. Unless you are saying Jesus is the one man over all. He alone is the head of the church as scripture clearly says.



These are just a small sample of the kind of false authority that can come from such a role over all. The Popes and priest over all can also have such misguided dominion over others.

Plurality of elder in every church is the biblical order and model we see in scripture, never a one man pastor over all in the New testament. Unless you are saying Jesus is the one man over all. He alone is the head of the church as scripture clearly says.



I think most of the so called Priest or pastors tend to be in a role that exalts them. Even if they are humble men this can be tempting. And I believe most of the assemblies look at these men as supreme in authority over them and in dominion over them and in control of them. Some of them call themselves "masters" of divinity. But Jesus said call no man master or father. He said this for a good reason.

Jesus Christ alone is the head of the church, not man. And all believers area royal priesthood, not a special priest over all like OT priesthood.

Here is a sample of an Eastern Orthodox man made By-Law and this is not scriptural , even the idea of making laws for such things is not.

"
ARTICLE III — PARISH

In accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, the Bishop is the Diocesan Authority and the head of this Parish and its Parish Priest and all the Parishes which constitute his diocese. He appoints this Parish's clergy, maintaining with them a relationship that is at once hierarchical and conciliar, marked by obedience and collaboration. He has the obligation and right of visitation to the parish and receives and approves regular reports on parish life. In case of conflict and disorder within the Parish, he takes all necessary measures to resolve them consistent with the Sacred Canons and the Statute.

This Parish, having been established by decision of the Diocesan Bishop, is a local Orthodox Eucharistic community with a vision for proclaiming the Kingdom of God and making its healing presence felt in the world, having as its head a duly appointed Parish Priest and consisting of Orthodox Christians who live in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, comply with the discipline and rules of the Church and regularly support their Parish. Being subordinate to the Diocesan Authority, it is a component part of the Diocese (Article VII, the Statute) and a component part of the Deanery and subordinate to the District Dean (Article XI, the Statute).

"
ARTICLE IV — PARISH PRIEST

The Parish Priest, also referred to as rector or priest-in-charge, by virtue of his ordination and canonical appointment, serves as the spiritual father and teacher of that portion of the flock of Christ entrusted to him, the first among the Parish clergy, and presides over liturgical worship in accordance with the tradition and the norms of the Church.

By virtue of the authority delegated to him at his appointment by the Diocesan Bishop, the Parish Priest, as head of the parish, shall:

i Teach, exhort, and edify the faithful entrusted to his spiritual care with compassion to enable them to grow in sanctification and maturity in the faith;

ii Provide for the administration of the sacraments and the celebration of all liturgical services;

iii Ensure that all activities including educational, evangelistic, philanthropic, social, and cultural activities within the Parish or of the Parish are consistent with the compassionate and ‘myrrh-bearing’ mission of the Church;

iv Head and administer the Parish consistent with the provisions of the Statute, the governing documents of the Diocese and Parish, and the directives of the Diocesan Authority in cooperation with the Parish Council. No activities in the Parish can be initiated without his knowledge, approval, and blessing; neither should he do anything pertaining to the Parish without the knowledge of the appropriate Parish bodies, so that always and everywhere there may be mutual trust, cooperation, unity, and love, thus endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Ephesians 4.3);

v Normally preside over the Parish Assembly and Parish Council, except in cases when the Bishop is present or when the Bishop’s delegate is present for this purpose;

Page 8 of 27

vi Head the Parish office and be entrusted with the care, custody, and maintenance of sacramental and administrative records, inventories, and the official Parish seal; and

vii Represent the Parish before local civil and judicial authorities and other third parties, either personally or through his delegate.

The Parish Priest shall be at liberty to be present at all Parish meetings, councils, groups, and gatherings. He is a Voting Member in good standing, a member of Parish Council and all other councils, groups and gatherings ex officio ecclesiae.

The Parish shall compensate the Parish Priest. His compensation shall be determined according to established diocesan procedures and norms. His compensation is to be clearly agreed upon prior to his appointment.

The Parish Priest possesses the rights and exercises the responsibilities stipulated by the Sacred Canons, the Statute, and the directives of the Holy Synod and the Diocesan Authority.

The Parish Priest cannot vacate his Parish, change his status, or seek to transfer to another parish or Diocese without the permission of the Bishop. "

ARTICLE VIII — PARISH ASSEMBLY

..."Since it is the sacred duty of the Parish Priest to guide the whole life and all activities of the Parish for which he is responsible before God:"

(https://www.myrrhbearers.ca/sites/default/files/Parish Bylaws.pdf)

Im not sure if this is similar to your assembly laws. If not show me where I can see the so called "By-Laws" of your assembly of the "Eastern orthodox church"

Such "By-Laws" I believe are unbiblical in many parts. I could spend hours exposing so much of this as against the order and functioning of the church and the commands of Jesus. Maybe I will do this soon,Lord willing.


I am sure that if I were to watch your order and listen and see how you gather and function. You would be similar to many and if not worse than some in your order. The body ministry would be almost nil and non functioning on a Sunday gathering. According to scripture every part of the body can minister and be led by God in any gift he has given in the function he has given them when they come together. I could quote many of the commands of God for this order. It is the opposite of mans order that quenches the spirit and sets up exalted men in control and dominion over others with a false authority.

I could ask you, when you come together can anyone at any time have something from God and be encouraged by scripture and the Spirit of God to share it? Or does your assembly order go something like this,

The people walk into a large man made building decorated with a steeple or two unbiblicaly called "the church". There is a sign on the lawn with a name on it. They come in and sit or stand and there. Someone might give you a program and the entire order is preplanned sometimes to the minute leaving no room at all for body ministry in the spirit. There may be two or three or more songs on the program then may be an announcement and scripture reading by the clergy and a liturgy and sermon from the text. There e will be sacramental things done with the Eucharist and communion, perhaps, then maybe an announcement and they all leave and shake the hand of the Priest who was in total control of the entire gathering. And all the time there are icon pictures surrounding the people that they can look at at any time during the man made forms and rituals.

I ask, where is Jesus in such an order? Is Jesus and the leading of the Spirit on the program?. Is he outside knocking wanting to come in and sup with all and to participate with all? Where is every one who gathers on the program? Are they able to have a slam a doctrine a revelation, a tongue a prophecy a word of wisdom or knowledge? Are the apostles prophets evangelist, pastors and teachers able to freely use their gifts at any time as they are led by God and commanded to be free to do when gathered? or would they be carried out by someone called an "usher"?

Scripture rebukes and warns against such a man made gathering and shows the true order in the spirit and as led By God (1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:101,11, Colossians 2:8,9, Colossians 3:15,16, Ephesians 4;11-16, 1 Thess 5:11, 1 Cor 12:7 and on, Romans 12;1-8 etc etc)


This is the big issue.

The man-made order which puts men in control others and you are saying they need man and this order to function. But Paul spoke of the order of God and it is a spiritual order as led by God in every believer. Only God can give men gifts and only God works in every believer to make them perfect unto every good work (Hebrews 13:2-0,21) . Paul says that all things should be done decently and in order. But this order was not mans order. One time Paul said he beheld another church order in the spirit even though he wasn't there physically.

What you and many say to try and keep this order of man is that you need a man to CONTROL all things in the assembly. This is exactly what the so called By-Laws and constitutions say. They call him the head of the church and the clergy in charge and he control every thing and everyone. He alone is allowed the freedom to minister and speak and use any gifts he might think he has.

But all are free to function as God leads at any time and as Christ works in each of them effectually they are able to edify (build up as a house builder) one another. This is how Jesus Christ builds His church. Not the way you and many others try to hinder it.Yes there are many godly people in such places. Thats not the issue. Even more so they should be warned and encouraged to follow after Christ leading and be led by the Spirit.

John warned of men who would act as if all needed them and to hear them rather than listening for God and the anointing.

consider

"6 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."( 1 John 2:26,27 KJV)

When I think about it, I was seduced for many years because of my lack of understanding. Deliverance was a long process for me because of physical conditions more like peer pressure than anything else. I had problem with what was being enforced by things such as that's is the way it's always been that can't be supported with anything but air.

 

[ace of hearts]

Furthermore, the Church is "at once hierarchical and conciliar, marked by obedience and collaboration". This makes it just like the Church depicted in the Book of Acts, where we say "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us". So all members of the Church are represented. So it is Biblical. Again, you are so determined to build the Church after your own desire rather than just worship God in the Church that Jesus Christ built Himself -- over 2000 years ago -- that you won't acknowledge the hierarchy that clearly existed in the New Testament Church and refuse to admit that the Orthodox Church uses the same New Testament ecclesiology.

You're promoting religion rather than a relationship with God and Jesus Christ.