The Pastor King (New)

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ace of hearts

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Well, if your definition of the Church holds true, then what can be said of those two or more gathering in Christ's name who don't know Who Christ really is? Are they also the Church? Are Jehovah's Witnesses gathering in Christ's name the Church? Are Mormons, who believe that Christ is the same person as the Father and the Holy Spirit, just at a different time, the Church? Am I to trust their understandings of Who Christ is to be true, because they gather in Christ's name and there are at least two of them?
In many cases it would be much better than trusting a person with letters of respect associated with their name.
 
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ace of hearts

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Thank you Keith, I know the Scriptures and agree with them. But those who gather in Christ's name but deny that He is the Incarnate, Eternal Word of the Eternal Father are not the Church. The Church are those who worship the Incarnate Word of God as God, and obey Him because He is the Word of God -- equal to the Father, yet a different Person than the Father.
None of the groups you mentioned promote Jesus Christ as the sole means of redemption or salvation of mankind.
 
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ace of hearts

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That's what I'm saying. They lack teachers who have received authority to define Biblical doctrine from Christ, Who passed His authority to His Apostles by breathing on them, and they in turn passed the authority on to their successors, the bishops, who they ordained by the laying on of hands. This Apostolic authority has been transmitted within the ancient historical Church all the way back to the Apostles. The authority to define Church teaching comes from our Lord and resides in all of the bishops together with the whole body of the Church. The Church is visible as well as invisible. False teaching falsifies the understanding of Who Christ is within the gatherings of those who follow the false teaching. This goes for any false teaching about God or the Church, which is the Body of Christ. If we don't know Who Christ really is, and we really can't know Him unless we have attained His likeness in ourselves, then we can't fully gather in His name. Though by the grace of the Holy Spirit it still possible to know Him in part.
There are many even in the tradition I grew up in I wouldn't want to touch or impart anything to me.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Personally I don't object to education (growing in knowledge). I do object to where this education my come from. Timothy was instructed both from his mother and Paul. He just didn't get a degree granting an elevated ego and respect. Another was instructed by a man and wife team. I believe I've been instructed by the Holy Spirit. Many will say no because we don't agree. Seminaries are also known as cemeteries.
Yes we can all learn from one another as we are led by God it is still true this verse

1 John 2:27. “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

And yes God does give the gift of teachers as they walk in the Spirit and from Christ the head who effectually works in them and in all the body,

Ephesians 4:15,16 “But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

Believers are to know them that labour among them this is done as the mature brothers minister as they are led.
 
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Bobber

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THE PASTOR KING

The Exalted Pastor over all

As shocking as this may seem, there is not one verse in the New Testament that speaks of a man over all the church called, “The Pastor”, who does most of the ministry, gets a regular salary and who acts as the head of the church. Rather, in the New Testament, we see the whole church ministering to one another in Christ who works effectually in all believers (Eph 4:11-16 , 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11) and we read of elders (plural) in every church (singular) who watch over and feed others spiritually (Acts 14:23, James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1,2). They are not to Lord over others and control them in a supreme authority but are to be examples.

Loveoftruth I agree with much of what you said but sorry it feels like an information overload in your OP.
 
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ace of hearts

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Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He demonstrated His authority by wielding the power of God in many ways. He passes that authority on within His established Church by the laying on of hands by His Apostles and their successors. The Bible and all other ancient Christian writings bear witness that this was the Tradition of the ancient Church from the very beginning. No founder of a new church is Christ. They do not have the power of God to wield in like manner as Him. The Apostles did, as we see in the Book of Acts. Throughout the long history of the ancient Church this same power has been manifest in various members of the Church. Some were bishops, some priests, some deacons, some monks, nuns, laity, teachers, martyrs, confessors, etc. I'm personally aware of God's power manifesting inside of the ancient Church of which I am a member, as I am a witness of these manifestations. I have no such evidence of your claims.
Console yourself.
 
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ace of hearts

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Yes we can all learn from one another as we are led by God it is still true this verse

1 John 2:27. “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

And yes God does give the gift of teachers as they walk in the Spirit and from Christ the head who effectually works in them and in all the body,

Ephesians 4:15,16 “But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

Believers are to know them that labour among them this is done as the mature brothers minister as they are led.
I'm enjoying your thread. I think you're right on the money.
 
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Bobber

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The reality is, that if this modern role of the Pastor today was taken away from most assemblies they could not function and would most likely be in a fearful panic and possibly collapse. But if you take away the modern one man Pastor role over all from a true biblical church gathering, they would still be able to use their gifts and edify one another and minister as God intended in His order.

Yes they would but it seems to me the traditional paradigm of how church is to be carried out is so strong and ingrained in peoples minds it seems almost impossible to have people envision a different way.
 
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ace of hearts

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Apostolic succession is true. It is attested to in both Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition that was established from the beginning. It's not something that you were brought up with so you don't accept it. This is perfectly understandable given your background. We don't get to choose everything about our lives.
Who was Ananias? I read just a disciple. He comes form nowhere. He has no title. Who was Barnabas? What authority did he have? Where did he get his authority to endorse Saul?

Who are the men listed in Acts 13:1 and where did they get their authority?
 
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ace of hearts

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Yes they would but it seems to me the traditional paradigm of how church is to be carried out is so strong and ingrained in peoples minds it seems almost impossible to have people envision a different way.
I think there's a growing displeasure in the way things are. I see home groups more and more. I agree about the 2-3 gathered in the name of Jesus.
 
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ace of hearts

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So? The bishops, who are vested with the authority to do so by the laying on of hands by the Apostles, began to ordain certain men to represent them within the many local churches that were being planted all over the place. They called these "presbyters". They represent the bishop in the physical absence of the bishop, and receive their authority from the bishop (who is a successor of the Apostles) to do so "by the laying on of hands". There is no great evil conspiracy here. There are only ordained leaders in the Church doing what is necessary to minister to the needs of the growing Church by ordaining "assistants". This is just what the Apostles were doing when they ordained men to be deacons. But deacons were not given the authority to do certain things that bishops did. Presbyters were given a greater authority, but not as much as bishops. This is why there is now three ranks of Holy Orders. The bishop, the presbyter, and the deacon.
In your tradition. My tradition calls them something else. A deacon in my tradition hold an office for a set time and are given this position by the membership through a political process.
 
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ace of hearts

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It is obvious that Jesus Christ established His Apostles as authorities in His Church when He gave the keys and the power to "bind and loose". It is obvious also that the Tradition of passing this power to successors by the laying on of hands is also established in the Church by its practice by the Apostles themselves. Just because there are some Church leaders who fall from grace does not mean that the practice can be abolished or the authority disregarded. Jesus did not teach this. On the contrary, he says to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you." (Matthew 23:2-3) Jesus is saying here that their are people in offices of authority in the Church, and He Himself approves of this hierarchical order. As a matter of fact, He is the Author of it.
This isn't correct. The scribes and Pharisees didn't get their position by the laying on of hands at least that I know of. Maybe some one here can point out such a passage.
 
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ace of hearts

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Καταλαβαίνετε Ελληνικά, κύριε; Actually, the word occurs 18 times in the New Testament. "Shepherd" is just another translation of "pastor," just as "overseer" is only another translation of "bishop." And the one verse you've overlooked is:

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
...ἦτε γὰρ ὡς πρόβατα πλανώμενα ἀλλ᾽ ἐπεστράφητε νῦν ἐπὶ τὸν ποιμένα καὶ ἐπίσκοπον τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν... (1Pet. 2:25)

Note the equation of the terms--both are referring to watching over the sheep. These are not two roles combined in one office; they are the same role. You can say this is talking about Jesus, not merely human elder-bishops, but see the logic of what is being argued. Peter's point about Jesus depends on the idea that shepherding and oversight go together, not the other way around. If that's so, why should we believe that human elder-bishops are so separated from the concept of shepherding? Not only that, but the verse occurs in the context of a lengthy discussion on obeying earthly authorities.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
...καὶ οὓς μὲν ἔθετο ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρῶτον ἀποστόλους δεύτερον προφήτας τρίτον διδασκάλους ἔπειτα δυνάμεις εἶτα χαρίσματα ἰαμάτων ἀντιλήψεις, κυβερνήσεις γένη γλωσσῶν... (1Cor. 12:28)

The word in question is where we get the word cybernetics, the science of communication and control. It itself is derived from the verb κῠβερνᾰ́ω, which refers to piloting a boat. The pilot of a boat was literally the dude who was in charge of the ship. Ergo, 1Cor. 12:28 teaches that being in charge "in the church" was a divine appointment. You can argue, if you like, that all believers have the gift of "governments," but I ask you, what happens when multiple people are trying to steer the same vehicle at the same time? Shipwreck. Hence why Protestantism, and especially Pentecostalism, is a fragmented mess.

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Οἱ καλῶς προεστῶτες πρεσβύτεροι διπλῆς τιμῆς ἀξιούσθωσαν μάλιστα οἱ κοπιῶντες ἐν λόγῳ καὶ διδασκαλίᾳ... (1Tim. 5:17)

The term προεστῶτες refers literally to one who is placed before or above others. It is the same word that Paul uses earlier to refer to the head of a household (1Tim. 3:5) who "rules" over his children (3:12). This implies that at least some elders have the gift of government or cybernetics whereas other others do not, and explicitly tells us that some govern better than others and should be given extra respect. To brush off this bishop-elder role as only being "oversight" is to suggest that Chapter 3 imagines the parent as being someone who merely leads their child by example and doesn't have control in the sense of headship and discipline, which in turn would imply (because of the analogy in Ephesians 5) that Christ himself is not the head of the Church in the sense of commanding it.

Οχι. Δεν καταλαβαίνετε Ελληνικά. Learn Modern Greek. It's the closest living relative to κοινή, and you'll understand the New Testament better. Go to a Greek Orthodox church to practice speaking it. In the process you'll learn that good priests (short for presbyters/elders) and bishops are pastors in the sense of ruling in service of their flocks, not people who forego rule altogether.
Ah yes vanity makes a big mess of things.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yes they would but it seems to me the traditional paradigm of how church is to be carried out is so strong and ingrained in peoples minds it seems almost impossible to have people envision a different way.
I was thinking about this and it must have also been very hard for the Jews to let go of thier whole old covenant temple, sacrifices, and the entire religious understanding also. Similarly many Roman Catholics would have found it hard to leave thier religious forms and order to walk i the light God was shining to them.

It must be equally hard for the other religions when they become Christians having been brought up in thier ien cultures and erroneous doctrines and ways for centuries.

But the truth will make us free

We must walk in the truth God shows and the light he shines upon our path.
 
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Francis Drake

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elders are gifted and made overseers by God and they are known as they labour among us,
they also meet the qualifications given in Timothy and Titus.

I agree with much of what you've been saying, however I don't accept the idea that an elder is appointed as such by God.

If you look at the word "elder", it merely refers to a mature older person, male or female. This can be seen here.-
1Tim5v1Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
As can be seen, the word elder is juxtaposed against elder women, younger brothers and younger sisters. ie. its about family relationships and has nothing to do with an appointed position.

The world was a patriarchal society, and nobody would have challenged the idea that the head of the house was the father (and grandfather above him).
That's why Paul warns Timothy about showing respect to these family members in the right order.
Immediately previous to that verse, Paul tells Timothy v12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. ie. Don't expect anyone to listen just because you are a friend of Paul, but prove it in how you live among them. Only then will people give him credence, and despite his youth, look on him like they do their older and more mature members (elders).

The problem with appointing certain people to a position of eldership, is that all God given authority ends up being stripped from the remaining older members. And as we see in most churches, most end watching powerless from the sidelines.
In complete contrast, if all older members were expected to take up their spiritual responsibility in the assembly, instead of one man bands, we would have vibrant gifts led meetings.
 
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Who was Ananias? I read just a disciple. He comes form nowhere. He has no title.
The Holy Apostle Ananias of the Seventy was the first Bishop of Damascus. The Lord ordered him to restore the sight of Saul, the former persecutor of Christians, then baptize him (Acts 9:10-19, 22:12). Saul became the great preacher and Apostle Paul. Saint Ananias boldly and openly confessed Christianity before the Jews and the pagans, despite the danger.

From Damascus he went to preach at Eleutheropolis, where he healed many of their infirmities. Lucian, the prefect of the city, tried to persuade the holy one to offer sacrifice to idols. Because of Ananias’ staunch and solid confession of Christ, Lucian ordered that he be tortured. Harsh torments did not sway the witness of Truth. Then the torturers led him out beyond the city, where they stoned him. The saint prayed for those who put him to death. His relics were later transferred to Constantinople.
 
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Who was Barnabas? What authority did he have? Where did he get his authority to endorse Saul?
Holy Apostle Barnabas of the Seventy was born on the island of Cyprus into the family of the tribe of Levi, and he was named Joseph. He received his education at Jerusalem, being raised with his friend and fellow student Saul (the future Apostle Paul) under the renowned teacher of the Law, Gamaliel. Joseph was pious, he frequented the Temple, he strictly observed the fasts and avoided youthful distractions. During this time period our Lord Jesus Christ began His public ministry. Seeing the Lord and hearing His Divine Words, Joseph believed in Him as the Messiah. Filled with ardent love for the Savior, he followed Him. The Lord chose him to be one of His Seventy Apostles. The other Apostles called him Barnabas, which means “son of consolation.” After the Ascension of the Lord to Heaven, Barnabas sold land belonging to him near Jerusalem and he brought the money to the feet of the Apostles, leaving nothing for himself (Acts 4:36-37).

When Saul arrived in Jerusalem after his conversion and sought to join the followers of Christ, everyone there was afraid of him since he had persecuted the Church only a short while before. Barnabas, however, came with him to the Apostles and reported how the Lord had appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:26-28).

Saint Barnabas went to Antioch to encourage the believers, “Having come and having seen the grace of God, he rejoiced and he urged all to cleave to the Lord with sincerity of heart” (Acts 11:23). Then he went to Tarsus, and brought the Apostle Paul to Antioch, where for about a year they taught the people. It was here that the disciples first began to be called Christians (Acts 11:26). With the onset of famine, and taking along generous alms, Paul and Barnabas returned to Jerusalem. When King Herod killed Saint James the son of Zebedee, and had the Apostle Peter put under guard in prison to please the Jews, Saints Barnabas and Paul and Peter were led out of the prison by an angel of the Lord.

They hid out at the house of Barnabas’ aunt Maria. Later, when the persecution had quieted down, they returned to Antioch, taking with them Maria’s son John, surnamed Mark. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the prophets and teachers there imposed hands upon Barnabas and Paul, and sent them off to do the work to which the Lord had called them (Acts 13:2-3). Arriving in Seleucia, they sailed off to Cyprus and in the city of Salamis they preached the Word of God in the Jewish synagogues.

On Paphos they came across a sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, who was close with the proconsul Sergius. Wishing to hear the Word of God, the proconsul invited the saints to come to him. The sorcerer attempted to sway the proconsul from the Faith, but the Apostle Paul denounced the sorcerer, who through his words suddenly fell blind. The proconsul believed in Christ (Acts 13:6-12).

From Paphos Barnabas and Paul set sail for Pergamum of Pamphylia, and then they preached to the Jews and the Gentiles at Pisidian Antioch and throughout all that region. The Jews rioted and expelled Paul and Barnabas. The saints arrived in Iconium, but learning that the Jews wanted to stone them, they withdrew to Lystra and Derben. There the Apostle Paul healed a man, crippled in the legs from birth. The people assumed them to be the gods Zeus and Hermes and wanted to offer them sacrifice. The saints just barely persuaded them not to do this (Acts 14:8-18).

When the question arose whether those converted from the Gentiles should accept circumcision, Barnabas and Paul went to Jerusalem. There they were warmly received by the Apostles and elders. The preachers related “what God had wrought with them and how He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles” (Acts 14:27).

After long deliberations the Apostles collectively resolved not to impose any sort of burden upon Gentile Christians except what was necessary: to refrain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood (Acts 15:19-20). Letters were sent with Barnabas and Paul, and they again preached at Antioch, and after a certain while they decided to visit the other cities where they had visited earlier. Saint Barnabas wanted to take Mark along with him, but Saint Paul did not want to, since earlier he had left them. A quarrel arose, and they separated. Paul took Silas with him and went to Syria and Cilicia, while Barnabas took Mark with him to Cyprus (Acts 15:36-41).

Having multiplied the number of believers, Saint Barnabas traveled to Rome, where he was perhaps the first to preach Christ.

Saint Barnabas founded the episcopal see at Mediolanum (now Milan), and upon his return to Cyprus he continued to preach about Christ the Savior. Then the enraged Jews incited the pagans against Barnabas, and they led him out beyond the city and stoned him, and then built a fire to burn the body. Later on, having come upon this spot, Mark took up the unharmed body of Saint Barnabas and buried it in a cave, placing upon the saint’s bosom, in accord with his final wishes, the Gospel of Matthew which he had copied in his own hand.

Saint Barnabas died in about the year 62, at age seventy-six. In time, the burial spot was forgotten, but numerous signs took place at this spot. In the year 448, during the time of the emperor Zeno, Saint Barnabas appeared three times in a dream to Archbishop Anthimus of Cyprus and indicated the place where his relics were buried. Starting to dig at the indicated spot, Christians found the incorrupt body of the saint, and upon his chest was the Holy Gospel.

It was during this time that the Church of Cyprus began to be regarded as Apostolic in origin, and received the right of choosing its head. Thus Saint Barnabas defended Cyprus against the pretensions of the opponent of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, the heretic surnamed Knapheios, who had usurped the patriarchal throne at Antioch and tried to gain dominion over the Church of Cyprus.
 
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ace of hearts

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The Holy Apostle Ananias of the Seventy was the first Bishop of Damascus. The Lord ordered him to restore the sight of Saul, the former persecutor of Christians, then baptize him (Acts 9:10-19, 22:12). Saul became the great preacher and Apostle Paul. Saint Ananias boldly and openly confessed Christianity before the Jews and the pagans, despite the danger.

From Damascus he went to preach at Eleutheropolis, where he healed many of their infirmities. Lucian, the prefect of the city, tried to persuade the holy one to offer sacrifice to idols. Because of Ananias’ staunch and solid confession of Christ, Lucian ordered that he be tortured. Harsh torments did not sway the witness of Truth. Then the torturers led him out beyond the city, where they stoned him. The saint prayed for those who put him to death. His relics were later transferred to Constantinople.
Where do you get this information?
 
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