But scripture is not talking of people being ordained into eldership, but some being ordained from eldership.
Hello again,
I'm not sure what your talking about here exactly. An elder in the church is different than a elder in the world. The elders in the church are mature believers not just older men.
When Paul says to ordain elders in every church and another place to ordain elders in every city. These elders are overseers in the gatherings. But they are not to lord over. They are more mature men who feed the flock and care for others, exort the gainsayers with sound doctrine , lay hands on the sick etc. They may also have many different gifts. Some may be apostles as peter was (1 Peter 5) and still considered elders. But peter tells the elders to take the oversight. and feed. This does not mean that all the body cannot still minister to each other as they receive the gifts. they can, as Peter said in 1 peter 4:10,11, but the leaders are for certain functions in the body.
Consider, if there is a gathering in a home and we see perhaps 4 old men in the gathering and 7 middle aged men and yet with the 7 middle aged men among them there are 3 that are mature believers who have been saved and growing in the Lord for 15 years or so and the 4 older men just got saved last week. There is no way that the older men should be in oversight in the gatherings or ordained elders in the church. the 3 three middle aged men who meet the qualifictions of 1 Timothy and who are made overseers by the Holy Ghost can be ordained as elders. This is for many reasons. Some of which are to feed the flock to watch over, to convince the gainsayers with sound doctrine, to teach and many other good works in Christ. A true elder/overseer, is not to Lord over but watch over. Paul said we do not have dominion over your faith.
But the younger men would be elders in that situation in the church even if they were not as old as the new born believers who were older men.
Yet still honour should be given to the older men as older men, this is still right.
For example a gathering might have many younger men who have been believers for many years and then one of them sees their father get saved and come into the meeting. The father is not to take oversight and teach and feed the flock right away, though he can still minister as he is led. But the younger men and his son will still honour him.
It would be unwise to ordain him as an elder right away
In fact Paul left some churches without any elder/oversight for a long while and then went back to those churches later , to ordain elders. Elders take time to mature and as they use their gifts and mature they will be known in the gatherings and proven.
But I am by no means setting up one man as an elder over the gathering, Always we see a plurality of elder/overseers. Elder/Overseers in the church who are ordained are the same people as scripture shows.
Also an elder may be in a apostle gift or teacher, evangelist, prophet or pastor. They are not just in the pastor gift.
It is elder members alone, not younger people who should be ordained into the various roles of the church.
Paul told Timothy to let no man despise his youth, Timothy was a younger man and an apostle worker, and yet he was young.
The elders in the faith are more mature believers in the faith who have been growing and exercising their spiritual senses and who are able to teach and who are called to such oversight by God.
And they should certainly not be younger men.
It depends on what age we would put to "younger men".
They should not take oversight if they are a novice. Paul does not speak of a specific age, to add that to his words would create a hindrance to those who are called and mature in the faith regardless of their age.
For example suppose a gathering has come together in a home and they are all younger people none over the age of 26. Yet a few of the mature brethren who have been believers for a many years are know as they minister and feed others and their gifts are obvious to all. They can be ordained as elder/overseers. Even if they are young men.
Nobody should be ordained to any role in the church unless they are elders.
The scripture doesn't word it like this. It says
"ordain elders in every church" and
"ordain elders in every city". The elders ( mature brothers in the faith) are ordained.
Also Timothy had others lay hands on him and he was an apostle and Paul told him to let no man despise his youth. He was more mature than many older men and more gifted.
Also God gives gifts to the church such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers and we read nothing of an age limit here.
The early apostles were younger men when Jesus called them.
I never spoke about oversight. Just being an elder doesn't give anyone power other than over his own children.
I do not speak of any having "power" or authority over others. The power and authority is God as he works in all believers , as they speak and live in the word of God. This is fluid flowing from Christ the head ( Ephesians 4:15,16), not in a static position as the world and many churches have today.
When I speak of elders in the church that are ordained I am speaking of elder/Overseers. We see this connection in scripture
"5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:...7 For a bishop [overseer] must be..."
Here we see that elders are overseer in the church in this sense. He is not just referring to older men. They are older n the faith and that is who they are their function is to oversee and they may have various gifts.
"17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church....28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."(Acts 20:17,28)
Here we see that elders are made overseers by the Holy Ghost with certain functions. This does not stop the body from functioning and using all their gifts as well. It is there as a safety. In the multitude of cousel there is safety.
also
"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."(1 Peter 5:1-3)
You are still viewing the church as an organisation with officers. I am viewing it as the body of Christ, an organism.
No, I see the body of Christ as a living organism where Christ works in every part as the head. But each part has a function and office as scripture says.
"3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."(Romans 12:3-5)
Some offices are different, (not that any should think of themselves as more highly than they ought and not to exalt men over others).
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."(1 Timothy 3:1)
The word "office" relates to function or practice, not a office as the world uses it.
There is no way around the order of elder/overseers ordains and called by God for the body. This is seen in 1 Timothy 3, Titus, Acts, James, 1 Peter, etc This is far different than the one man pastor role we see today and the role that elders have under him today. The elders in many gathering are said to be the supportive arm of the pastor. But this is not biblical.
In a gathering that has been functioning for a while there may come in some heretics and other false teachers, some from the circumcision groups or other strange teachings. The weaker brothers and sisters will often be tossed about by these men and their windy doctrines. God set some in the church to address this and help the body.
Many baby chiristians will be trouble by a false teacher and look to the more proven, consistant, mature brothers who have spoke the word of God to them. They will look to them to help them and to exhort and convince the gainsayers with sound doctrine. This is one of the functions and protections in the body. This is a good thing if all have the same care one for another. it becomes a bad thing if they go off the route of the false apostles in 2 Cor 11, where they exalted themselves and devoured the flock and took of them and brought them into bondage and smote them on the face.
Favouring certain people with the title "elder", hijacks the calling of all mature members of the flock, relegating them to passivity.
I do not see any tiltles given to men, an elder is who they are , a mature brother in Christ, they are not just elders in the world. We do not give flattering titles unto men as scripture warns.
Just as we do not call a man
"Pastor Bob". Bob may have a pastor gift, but it is not so much a title. For example a teacher, teaches. That is a description of their function
Of course some elder men are babes in Christ, but they are still elders, just not ready for responsibility outside their own children
They are not elders in the faith. Though they may be elders in their role in a family in the flesh.
I reiterate, ordaining people into eldership is completely unscriptural. You are either an elder, or younger.
There are scriptures that have been shown show here that show to ordain elders. These elders are also /overseers in the church. There no age restriction or specification here.
Like I said, in a gathering with the older man about
26 years old and where many young people an families meet in a home, can still have elders there.
But lets suppose this home meeting has been going on for about 3 years and many of the young men have been believers for over ten years and there were three elder/overseers ordained in that gathering and the body was edifying itself where all supply for years. then a few very old men came in the meetings who just got saved. These older men are not the elders in the faith there, the younger men would be.
Does that make sense.
When I speak of elder/overseer in the church I am talking about older men in the faith, what age they might b is not the issue. They should simply not be novices.
There are elders in the faith and elders in the physical. Both as christians should be honoured.
The younger in the faith should honour the older in the faith and yet all should be clothed with humility.
If a very old man comes into that gathering of many people and families and all are under 26 and they have been in the faith for a long time. He should also be humble to recognize the work and gift of God in the body and to those who have already been ordained as elder/overseers in the gathering he should also know and hear and not to simply think he can speak with greater weight than they because he is a older man, but young in the faith.
My beef is that when you ordain anyone to eldership, you undermine the spiritual responsibility of everyone else. Your man made structures leave the church incredibly weak.
No, we see clearly verses that say to
"ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:...7 For a bishop [overseer] must be..." and
"ordain elders in every city and to
call for the elders of the church etc. These elders were made overseers by the Holy Ghost. They, as all other believers are commended to God and to the word of His grace which is able to build them up.
But God works in every believer to will and to do and to make them perfect unto all good works. God gets the glory in the church not man.
No man should exalt himself over others. Elders help the younger and they do not have a title or some power over others in some static role. But their power only flows as they are in Christ and he works effectually in them as he does in all.
I do not create man made structures.
Some would have a gathering forever with no elder/overseers ordained and so they would fight against the command and order as shown in scripture. There are many patterns of this function in the body in scripture.
elders are made overseers by God not by man.
"over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,"