predestined

[friend of]

Can we thwart the plans and purposes of God?

But God also says that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and that He wants everyone to be saved. So if He feels this way, why does he still predestined others for hell?

 

[redleghunter]

Because of "foreknowledge and predestination, mankind is nothing more than "robots" who cannot act any different than what God foreknows and "predestinates" them to do.

I wish I could count the number of times I have been told this by Catholics, well meaning Catholics, and Orthodox as well.

I especially like the "what monster deity would pre-select some for salvation and others throw in hell."

That seems to be tagged on to Reformed as well. LOL.

 

[redleghunter]

oh.. I don't understand. I can't just have faith and sit/be quite/go about my business, i have to do stuff?

Give it up man. This is not a faith/works thread.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

No!

no to what? So let's say 20% of people will be saved by god. The other 80% are damned. So there is no way for another 20% or 40% to hear the gospel and change their minds? Sorry I'm just scared and I know I shouldn't. Maybe accepted my fate that I may never know and stop asking question.

 

[redleghunter]

Justification by faith alone does not rule out the various Biblical requirements to do stuff.

"Hint: start at bottom." Glad they put that disclaimer in there.

 

[redleghunter]

The Calvinist mindset is that God alone predestines whom he elects.

Actually Paul said that. And Jesus.

 

[Halbhh]

Complete rubbish. Reformed doctrine does not teach determinism. It teaches the Sovereignty of God, a God Who has a Will and Purpose.

The Libertarian free will peddled about in some Christian corners is influenced by Deistic Enlightenment and in the postmodern era influenced by human concepts of 'fairness' and 'social justice.'

Ephesians 1: NASB
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I gather Paul was a Calvinist? Because what you see above is apostolic teaching and shared by St Augustine and the Reformers.

Ah, few or none even would say we are not 'predestined' but instead we might (unhelpfully) argue over just what that means.

But, I notice this wonderful quote you quoted gives us a key thing about His will:

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ...

...the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him."

To me, the word "mystery" means we cannot know all about it.

As Paul wrote: "now we know in part" -- 1 Cor chapter 13, v9-10. So, we do not know in full. Not yet. Knowing that I only know in part, that everyone only knows in part, not in full, I have only a best possible way to fit the most verses together when I'm trying to plumb the mystery. We can know that as we try to plumb the mystery, it is above us (not merely equal to us). So, a way to fit the most verses together (without contradicting other verses not mentioned yet) is possibly this way: Corporate election - Wikipedia
But this is helpful only because some need it, to realize some profoundly unfair seeming idea like double predestination (the doctrine) is but an idea, an attempt to plumb the mystery, by those who do not know in full.
Even while we may recognize 'corporate election' fits more verses better (from someone's point of view and knowing verses), it itself is still yet another attempt to plumb the mystery, and we should humbly continue to know we aren't yet knowing in full.

 

[redleghunter]

The Reformed model has nothing to do with what choices man makes since man is reprobate.

Can you quote me some sources on how you came up with this?

It is God alone who sovereignly chooses whom to elect to salvation.

Now you are getting it. That is in fact Biblical doctrine. But does not preclude human choices.

Even on standardized tests you get limited options to choose.

 

[redleghunter]

Ah, few or none even would say we are not 'predestined' but instead we might (unhelpfully) argue over just what that means.

But, I notice this wonderful quote you quoted gives us a key thing about His will:

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ...

...the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him."

To me, the word "mystery" means we cannot know all about it.

As Paul wrote: "now we know in part" -- 1 Cor chapter 13, v9-10. So, we do not know in full. Not yet. Knowing that I only know in part, that everyone only knows in part, not in full, I have only a best possible way to fit the most verses together when I'm trying to plumb the mystery. We can know that as we try to plumb the mystery, it is above us (not merely equal to us). So, a way to fit the most verses together (without contradicting other verses not mentioned yet) is possibly this way: Corporate election - Wikipedia
But this is helpful only because some need it, to realize some profoundly unfair seeming idea like double predestination (the doctrine) is but an idea, an attempt to plumb the mystery, by those who do not know in full.

Can you argue corporate election from the Scriptures? I know it's tough as all of those words in Ephesians 1 are for individuals and not a corporate group.

But I'm up for seeing a Biblical discourse on corporate election.

 

[redleghunter]

It means precisely what it mean. Not that I believe in luck but tough luck because if you're not of the elect = too bad for you.

Can you argue this from Scriptures?

 

[mark kennedy]

Nope! The Gnostics had the same deterministic view as Calvinists. If you weren't chosen, then you weren't.

They were pagans, equivocating that with Calvinism is pure slander.

 

[Cis.jd]

Give it up man. This is not a faith/works thread.

I understand it's not... but apparently the theological views being presented here have a lot of logical holes in them and I think you see it. It's more relative to the main topic than Justification, btw (although they are related). All I see is a very dualistic view of predestination and a load of confusion about faith alone yet for some reason still having tasks to fulfill.

continue on anyway.

 

[redleghunter]

even the people who think they're saved can't know for sure if they're elect or not.

you can think you are but God may not have predestined you so youre not so even if you go to church and think you're doing all the right things and you think you believe all the right things it doesn't mean you're one of the elect. there's no guarantee you're elect until you die and find out if God chose you or not.

its difficult not to know for sure.

but at least dont have to evangelize, if people are meant to be elect they will be regardless.
but some won't be even if they would like to be because they are not destined to be so they can't.

unsettling not knowing if you are one of the elect or not.

In Ephesians 1 Paul is speaking of predestination and election as a comfort and joy for the audience he speaks to which were Gentile Christians. He is demonstrating the love, grace, mercy, power and awe of a God who would take condemned souls and save them. So his use of predestination and foreknowledge was not to teach we can know we are saved this side of history, but assurance that adopted sons and daughters we have such a God who loves us and is merciful. It was to put them and us in awe of God's grand design to redeem us by His will and purpose. It was a demonstration of God's Sovereignty, not to be a guessing game. God predestines yes, but we don't know who exactly.

However, if there is any personal doubt if one is child of God, Paul tells us in Romans 8:16 that the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. Probably the most concrete and sobering one sentence in the New Testament.

 

[redleghunter]

I understand it's not... but apparently the theological views being presented here have a lot of logical holes in them and I think you see it. It's more relative to the main topic than Justification, btw (although they are related). All I see is a very dualistic view of predestination and a load of confusion about faith alone yet for some reason still having tasks to fulfill.

continue on anyway.

Sure, I'd love to see you argue from the Scriptures on these logical holes.

 

[Halbhh]

Can you argue corporate election from the Scriptures? I know it's tough as all of those words in Ephesians 1 are for individuals and not a corporate group.

But I'm up for seeing a Biblical discourse on corporate election.

Well, the wiki I linked really brings together a lot of verses, and was a good overview for me of putting the various verses together. (we don't have to think we understand perfectly, even while we have this or that idea we can remember it's an idea; while all the verses used are true of course, I'm not saying this is a perfect understanding to have them all -- even if the view is largely correct in what it says, it would still be an 'in part' and not an 'in full'. Put another way, we know in part.)

 

[redleghunter]

That's a great idea, because Romans proves that predestination is not about being predestined to surrender to God.
Predestination is about what happens to those who have already surrendered to God, and already possess new life.

Romans8v28And we know that God works together all things for good to those loving God, to those being called according to His purpose,
So, this passage is solely about those who love God, not about the unregenerates.

29because those whom He foreknew,
Foreknew who would freely surrender to his love without coercion.

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
Predestined those he foreknew would surrender. Not predestined or preprogrammed to surrender.

for Him to be firstborn among many brothers.
Jesus, brother to those who chose surrender.

30And those whom He predestined, these also He called; and whom He called, these also He justified; and whom He justified, these also He glorified.
So those God foreknew would surrender to Him, He predestined them alone, He called them alone, He justified them alone, He glorified them alone.
God's plans are all based on those he foreknew would humble themselves before him.
In no place does scripture state that God predestines or forces any man to surrender against his freewill.

God waits for our first move to love and obey Him before He predestines us? How does that work?

 

[redleghunter]

Well, the wiki I linked really brings together a lot of verses, and was a good overview for me of putting the various verses together. (we don't have to think we understand perfectly, even while we have this or that idea we can remember it's an idea; while all the verses used are true of course, I'm not saying this is a perfect understanding to have them all -- even if the view is largely correct in what it says, it would still be an 'in part' and not an 'in full'. Put another way, we know in part.)

Ok I will find time for Wiki to teach me what you believe.

 

[redleghunter]

we dont even know if we ourselves are elect
until we die.

God gave us a better Hope:

Romans 8:16

 

[zoidar]

Complete rubbish. Reformed doctrine does not teach determinism. It teaches the Sovereignty of God, a God Who has a Will and Purpose.

The Libertarian free will peddled about in some Christian corners is influenced by Deistic Enlightenment and in the postmodern era influenced by human concepts of 'fairness' and 'social justice.'

Ephesians 1: NASB
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I gather Paul was a Calvinist? Because what you see above is apostolic teaching and shared by St Augustine and the Reformers.

They were pagans, equivocating that with Calvinism is pure slander.

I may be wrong calling Calvinism deterministic, but please tell me the difference from what Calvinists believe and being deterministic.

Mark, tell me in what way Calvinistic election differs from Gnostic election.

Redleghunter, if you follow Augustine you should believe elect can fall away. Concerning the reformers, they were wrong in a lot if things, taught things that the early Church didn't.

 

[Halbhh]

Ok I will find time for Wiki to teach me what you believe.

I believe in Christ, and in the words of the gospels, the epistles, but still I only know in part, and believe everyone individually only knows in part. I don't believe I know in full, see. So, instead of believing in corporate election, I recognize it's an interpretation just like double predestination is an interpretation. It's sort of like this: I know fully that my nervous system works, even while I don't know precisely everything (instead only some things) about how it works. (I'm aware that a very general description of certain key pieces/realities about how synapses and networks of neurons work is not a full understanding.)